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Yes I agree there's little point in instantiating arbitrary abstract structures, however that isn't what I was suggesting. The related structures and properties

Yes I agree there's little point in instantiating arbitrary abstract structures, however that isn't what I was suggesting. The related structures and properties identified in Levin's work are specifically those of the 'agential' type (going from molecular-networks/cellular scale right up to and past human-level): Goal-following meta-rules is what would be in the 'class', not just measurements or information attached/correlated to something because some numbers happen to be equal, but a type of memory of intrinsic meta-self-serving micro-behaviors that actually do inform the micro-elements how to behave. I think that self-organization creates the possibility for the natural nucleation of agential-behavior (akin to crystal-formation) and when the system is also replicative overall, it might cause itself to happen again too! (and down the rabbit-hole we go!) And I wonder whether it's really ok to just claim there is no micro-organizational structure that gives rise to this meta-goal-following, I mean, this is what Levin's work is all about! My own consciousness/'intelligence' is brought about by many smaller agents (my cells), and I think there's really no sharp categorical barrier here - goal-seeking (and hitting, for the winners of evolution) are pretty clear strategies from the molecular-scale to the blue-whale-sized (and humans too I reckon!)

mjburgess 2y ago
If you mean to say that materials which have the property of self-replication with variation are essential to intelligence, then I agree with you. One finds, in reality, that crystals do not meet this requirement -- the only known chemistry to provide it is a highly specific subtype of carbon chemistry called biology.
- danwills 2y ago
  Yeah I think we are mostly on the same page for sure, I would nearly go so far as to say that self-replicating with variation is 'essential' for intelligence.. and I do utterly love evolution as an idea - but maybe it's just what happened-to-produce the main examples of intelligence we've observed so far in recent history on Earth? (personally I don't think it's just humans that are intelligent either though! so many animals and probably other things are extremely smart too! Just very hard to measure!) And yeah I was only using the idea of a crystal as an analogy, all replicators (all life?) is a bit like a kind of smooshy-space-and-time-crystal in a way though right? Especially the multicellular kind!! It's the regeneration/continuation of information of who-knows what type? All types! Obviously there's genes and Levin's vmem and other epigenetic stuff on the biological-side, but now there's also youtube, video-games, recipes, traditions? all memetic-replicators, or meta-memetic ones that control which other memes you allow in your life? I like to remember that all of them are subject to the rules-of-evolution too - there's a success for the memes themselves if they are getting us to carrying them forward!! Can be wildly different types of memories accross epic amounts of time too? Bloody amazing to think about I reckon! Evolution FTW!

mjburgess 2y ago

If you mean to say that materials which have the property of self-replication with variation are essential to intelligence, then I agree with you. One finds, in reality, that crystals do not meet this requirement -- the only known chemistry to provide it is a highly specific subtype of carbon chemistry called biology.

danwills 2y ago
Yeah I think we are mostly on the same page for sure, I would nearly go so far as to say that self-replicating with variation is 'essential' for intelligence.. and I do utterly love evolution as an idea - but maybe it's just what happened-to-produce the main examples of intelligence we've observed so far in recent history on Earth? (personally I don't think it's just humans that are intelligent either though! so many animals and probably other things are extremely smart too! Just very hard to measure!) And yeah I was only using the idea of a crystal as an analogy, all replicators (all life?) is a bit like a kind of smooshy-space-and-time-crystal in a way though right? Especially the multicellular kind!! It's the regeneration/continuation of information of who-knows what type? All types! Obviously there's genes and Levin's vmem and other epigenetic stuff on the biological-side, but now there's also youtube, video-games, recipes, traditions? all memetic-replicators, or meta-memetic ones that control which other memes you allow in your life? I like to remember that all of them are subject to the rules-of-evolution too - there's a success for the memes themselves if they are getting us to carrying them forward!! Can be wildly different types of memories accross epic amounts of time too? Bloody amazing to think about I reckon! Evolution FTW!