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Methanol is a biproduct of fermentation, and will be part of the destillate if not done carefully. I doubt that ethanol used in car and torpedo fuel will go th

by folli 2y ago

Methanol is a biproduct of fermentation, and will be part of the destillate if not done carefully. I doubt that ethanol used in car and torpedo fuel will go through the same quality control than drinking alcohol.

rglullis 2y ago
This is why I've written severe poisoning. It was never a healthy thing to do, but it took a case of "shit, people are actually going blind because of this" for it to stop.
potato3732842 2y ago
The torpedo grade ethanol (fuel grade alcohol generally) necessitates quality control than ethanol for consumption because it has to pair with a precise number of oxygen molecules (which in the case of a torpedo are pre-allocated so you can't just tolerate it running lean or rich without a huge change in range) and produce known energy in the process and calling a bunch of subs and ships back to have their ethanol tested because you put out a bad batch is a way bigger PITA than telling a bunch of distributors to trash product and collect a refund. If unsafe for humans amounts of methanol in the product was tolerable for the torpedos they would have just done that to prevent consumption. The cleanliness and hygiene controls along the way are going to be lesser. It's not like it's being made in a food factory.
- vanderZwan 2y ago
  > The cleanliness and hygiene controls along the way are going to be lesser. It's not like it's being made in a food factory. Sincere question: isn't "hygiene" usually referring only to bacteria, viruses and other organic contamination? Don't get me wrong, I'm with you that I'd worry about contamination with all kinds of other toxic stuff.
  - dec0dedab0de 2y ago
    No, hygiene means anything done for the purpose of maintaining good health. It is commonly used as a synonym for cleanliness.
  - wildzzz 2y ago
    Probably more like trace amounts of heavy metals and other things like benzene or residue from other substances from the vessels. Stuff that would be awful to consume but likely won't make much of a difference in fuel. Like with anything else, the price will increase for how ever pure you need the substance to be. Using alcohol as a solvent doesn't require much purity, any other alcohols in the mix will still do the job. If you want to be able to drink it, then the alcohol needs to be as pure as possible.
  - crazygringo 2y ago
    You really got me wondering about that. I can't find a definitive answer, but Wikipedia certainly suggests it is: > The terms cleanliness and hygiene are often used interchangeably, which can cause confusion. In general, hygiene refers to practices that prevent spread of disease-causing organisms. Cleaning processes (e.g., handwashing) remove infectious microbes as well as dirt and soil, and are thus often the means to achieve hygiene. > Home hygiene pertains to the hygiene practices that prevent or minimize the spread of disease at home and other everyday settings such as social settings, public transport, the workplace, public places, and more. Hygiene in a variety of settings plays an important role in preventing the spread of infectious diseases. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene It does seem like hygiene controls are going to be concerned exclusively with infectious disease, while cleanliness is going to prevent broader contamination of anything toxic.
oakwhiz 2y ago
If I recall correctly, there might be benzene remaining in the alcohol from the water removal process.
- devilbunny 2y ago
  Benzene really only shows up in traces if you're trying to get absolute ethanol (100%). You can distill up to 95% ethanol (the EtOH-water azeotrope) without introducing anything else.
  - hilbert42 2y ago
    Right, the EtOH/azeotrope is the normal domestic (industrial grade) product available where I am (Australia), it's available in all supermarkets, etc. That said, it often has impurities that ought not be present (see my other post). Here, 'absolute ethanol' is typically 99%. No doubt H2O is a significant part of that last 1% but going on my experience with 95% EtOH I wouldn't be a bit surprised about it being benzene and it's likely there's other undesirable stuff as well. BTW, over the years I've bought a lot of industrial grade 'absolute ethanol' which I use in woodworking as a solvent for shellac. 95% EtOH is unsatisfactory as the water in it often causes the shellac to turn a cloudy/milky colour. I have to buy the 99% grade in 20-litre plastic containers as usually that's the smallest amount that's supplied. Moreover, it's much more expensive, at least double the price and on par with that of isopropanol. Given its price and comparative rarity I doubt whether its consumption would be a signifiant problem. Anecdotally, the stuff I buy seems to have significantly more denatonium than the normal EtOH, quite some time after using it I've momentarily held my (dry) hand on my face near my mouth and the denatonium is almost overpowering. That's not the case with normal domestic EtOH (in the same situation denatonium is present but nowhere near as objectionable).
    - devilbunny 2y ago
      Absolute ethanol in the US is a chemical product and does not have denatonium in it. It isn’t much used, but you will sometimes see it in chemistry labs for IR spectroscopy. It’s at least 99%, the whole point of it is having a solvent that wipes out that huge water absorption band on IR so you can see the rest.
ordu 2y ago
Ethanol is an antidote for methanol. Methanol is a very poisonous by itself, but when mixed with ethanol, its consumption might end without long term consequences like blindness or death. The deadliness of their mix depends on a ratio, I believe that 50/50 is survivable. So if you are not very picky when it comes to drinks, it doesn't really matter if your ethanol has 10% of methanol.
- hilbert42 2y ago
  "I believe that 50/50 is survivable. " Perhaps so, but is that a one-off shot/dosing or habitually (as an alcoholic)? In my other post I pointed out that denatured ethanol sold as 'Methylated Spirits' used to have 15% methanol and 3% pyridine as denaturants and in practice this combination was considered highly toxic and that's why the denaturants were changed to nontoxic denatonium (ie 95% ethanol, 5% H2O and trace denatonium). For Methylated Spirits the methanol/pyridine ratios were set deliberately to be toxic and the product was labeled 'POISON'. Whether the pyridine added significantly to the toxicity I cannot say. Nor do I know why the ratios were set as they were. No doubt a check of how that standard was set and the death rate stats before and after the denatonium was added would tell the actual story.
AngryData 2y ago
From what I understand, although methanol is usually present in small amounts when fermenting things, even when distilling you never really concentrate enough of it to be a problem unless you are specifically trying to produce and distill methanol. That doesn't mean they are good spirits, just not deadly. The idea that moonshine might accidentally be methanol and kill you is just prohibition propaganda to shift alcohol deaths away from the government purposefully tainting alcohols to prevent/punish people from drinking it and onto the illegal bootleggers who were providing safe drinking spirits. Methanol is always a purposefully added substance at some point if it is anywhere near poisonous levels. To produce it you don't ferment anything first, you just heat up wood until it decomposes from heat and distill off the oils and alcohols and tars that come off like how they break down coal into gases and oils. But for non-consumption purposes adding methanol to ethanol may have desirable benefits for the application, and isn't just there to poison people to prevent consumption. Sometimes it might just be cheaper than regular ethanol if you are just going to burn it.
- hilbert42 2y ago
  "Methanol is always a purposefully added substance at some point if it is anywhere near poisonous levels." That's usually true. Adding methanol to ethanol can be either deliberate or accidental. Where I am (Australia) methanol and pyridine used to be added to ethanol as a denaturant so it could be sold without liquor tax and it was sold as 'Methylated Spirits' and labeled 'POISON'. If I recall the amount of methanol was 15% and the pyridine was 3%. Methanol was set at 15% with the deliberate intention of making the 'spirits' toxic and the pyridine to make it foul tasting (and pyridine itself is also toxic). At those percentages both denaturants were similar enough to ethanol as not to interfere significantly with its primarily purposes—as a solvent, fuel, etc. Nevertheless, that didn't deter diehard drinkers/alcoholics from consuming methylated spirits and the effects on their health were catastrophic—blindness and death. Several decades ago both methanol and pyridine were removed and replaced with denatonium (aka Bitrex) as the denaturant, which is not toxic at the level necessary for its purpose. Nevertheless, the product is still sold as 'Methylated Spirits' with the fine print calling it 'ethanol solution 95%, UN 1170', and the warning changed from 'POISON' to 'CAUTION'. The logic behind the change being that it was 'safer'—read it cost the State less in medical expenses. I think the UK has done something similar and no doubt a number of other countries have followed suit, except I believe the US makes ethanol harder to get and usually substitutes isopropanol/rubbing alcohol for domestic use (someone in the US please update me on the rules there). Since the advent of denatonium as a denaturant, it seems to me there is no need to add methanol and I reckon it ought to be highly illegal to do so. If ethanol/methanol mixtures are needed for some purpose then they should be strictly labeled and denatonium a mandated additive. What concerns me is the accidental addition of methanol to ethanol (to 'Methylated Spirits'). I use a lot of ethanol in the form of Methylated Spirits for cleaning and as a solvent as it's a much cheaper substitute for isopropanol and I've noticed occasionally that its odor is very different (once every 3 or 4 months on weekly purchases). In fact, I've noticed the odor of formaldehyde on more than one occasion (and that's not the only impurity I've detected by nose). This tells me there's very little control on the distribution of industrial solvents (in this class that is). I'd suggest tanks/tankers, etc. aren't properly flushed when changing product and or such. If distribution equipment isn't being cleaned properly then people aren't being careful and worse could easily happen. From my experience it seems to me it's still a very risky business to assume that 'industrial' ethanol is actually just that (95% ethanol, 5% H2O and trace denatonium). There's no way I'd ever risk drinking the stuff—that is assuming I could stand the taste of the excruciatingly bitter denatonium. I'd be interested to know how other countries now handle the rules in regard to ethanol distribution.

by folli 2y ago

rglullis 2y ago

This is why I've written severe poisoning. It was never a healthy thing to do, but it took a case of "shit, people are actually going blind because of this" for it to stop.

potato3732842 2y ago

The torpedo grade ethanol (fuel grade alcohol generally) necessitates quality control than ethanol for consumption because it has to pair with a precise number of oxygen molecules (which in the case of a torpedo are pre-allocated so you can't just tolerate it running lean or rich without a huge change in range) and produce known energy in the process and calling a bunch of subs and ships back to have their ethanol tested because you put out a bad batch is a way bigger PITA than telling a bunch of distributors to trash product and collect a refund. If unsafe for humans amounts of methanol in the product was tolerable for the torpedos they would have just done that to prevent consumption. The cleanliness and hygiene controls along the way are going to be lesser. It's not like it's being made in a food factory.

vanderZwan 2y ago
> The cleanliness and hygiene controls along the way are going to be lesser. It's not like it's being made in a food factory. Sincere question: isn't "hygiene" usually referring only to bacteria, viruses and other organic contamination? Don't get me wrong, I'm with you that I'd worry about contamination with all kinds of other toxic stuff.
- dec0dedab0de 2y ago
  No, hygiene means anything done for the purpose of maintaining good health. It is commonly used as a synonym for cleanliness.
- wildzzz 2y ago
  Probably more like trace amounts of heavy metals and other things like benzene or residue from other substances from the vessels. Stuff that would be awful to consume but likely won't make much of a difference in fuel. Like with anything else, the price will increase for how ever pure you need the substance to be. Using alcohol as a solvent doesn't require much purity, any other alcohols in the mix will still do the job. If you want to be able to drink it, then the alcohol needs to be as pure as possible.
- crazygringo 2y ago
  You really got me wondering about that. I can't find a definitive answer, but Wikipedia certainly suggests it is: > The terms cleanliness and hygiene are often used interchangeably, which can cause confusion. In general, hygiene refers to practices that prevent spread of disease-causing organisms. Cleaning processes (e.g., handwashing) remove infectious microbes as well as dirt and soil, and are thus often the means to achieve hygiene. > Home hygiene pertains to the hygiene practices that prevent or minimize the spread of disease at home and other everyday settings such as social settings, public transport, the workplace, public places, and more. Hygiene in a variety of settings plays an important role in preventing the spread of infectious diseases. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene It does seem like hygiene controls are going to be concerned exclusively with infectious disease, while cleanliness is going to prevent broader contamination of anything toxic.

oakwhiz 2y ago

If I recall correctly, there might be benzene remaining in the alcohol from the water removal process.

devilbunny 2y ago
Benzene really only shows up in traces if you're trying to get absolute ethanol (100%). You can distill up to 95% ethanol (the EtOH-water azeotrope) without introducing anything else.
- hilbert42 2y ago
  Right, the EtOH/azeotrope is the normal domestic (industrial grade) product available where I am (Australia), it's available in all supermarkets, etc. That said, it often has impurities that ought not be present (see my other post). Here, 'absolute ethanol' is typically 99%. No doubt H2O is a significant part of that last 1% but going on my experience with 95% EtOH I wouldn't be a bit surprised about it being benzene and it's likely there's other undesirable stuff as well. BTW, over the years I've bought a lot of industrial grade 'absolute ethanol' which I use in woodworking as a solvent for shellac. 95% EtOH is unsatisfactory as the water in it often causes the shellac to turn a cloudy/milky colour. I have to buy the 99% grade in 20-litre plastic containers as usually that's the smallest amount that's supplied. Moreover, it's much more expensive, at least double the price and on par with that of isopropanol. Given its price and comparative rarity I doubt whether its consumption would be a signifiant problem. Anecdotally, the stuff I buy seems to have significantly more denatonium than the normal EtOH, quite some time after using it I've momentarily held my (dry) hand on my face near my mouth and the denatonium is almost overpowering. That's not the case with normal domestic EtOH (in the same situation denatonium is present but nowhere near as objectionable).
  - devilbunny 2y ago
    Absolute ethanol in the US is a chemical product and does not have denatonium in it. It isn’t much used, but you will sometimes see it in chemistry labs for IR spectroscopy. It’s at least 99%, the whole point of it is having a solvent that wipes out that huge water absorption band on IR so you can see the rest.

ordu 2y ago

Ethanol is an antidote for methanol. Methanol is a very poisonous by itself, but when mixed with ethanol, its consumption might end without long term consequences like blindness or death. The deadliness of their mix depends on a ratio, I believe that 50/50 is survivable. So if you are not very picky when it comes to drinks, it doesn't really matter if your ethanol has 10% of methanol.

hilbert42 2y ago
"I believe that 50/50 is survivable. " Perhaps so, but is that a one-off shot/dosing or habitually (as an alcoholic)? In my other post I pointed out that denatured ethanol sold as 'Methylated Spirits' used to have 15% methanol and 3% pyridine as denaturants and in practice this combination was considered highly toxic and that's why the denaturants were changed to nontoxic denatonium (ie 95% ethanol, 5% H2O and trace denatonium). For Methylated Spirits the methanol/pyridine ratios were set deliberately to be toxic and the product was labeled 'POISON'. Whether the pyridine added significantly to the toxicity I cannot say. Nor do I know why the ratios were set as they were. No doubt a check of how that standard was set and the death rate stats before and after the denatonium was added would tell the actual story.

AngryData 2y ago

From what I understand, although methanol is usually present in small amounts when fermenting things, even when distilling you never really concentrate enough of it to be a problem unless you are specifically trying to produce and distill methanol. That doesn't mean they are good spirits, just not deadly. The idea that moonshine might accidentally be methanol and kill you is just prohibition propaganda to shift alcohol deaths away from the government purposefully tainting alcohols to prevent/punish people from drinking it and onto the illegal bootleggers who were providing safe drinking spirits. Methanol is always a purposefully added substance at some point if it is anywhere near poisonous levels. To produce it you don't ferment anything first, you just heat up wood until it decomposes from heat and distill off the oils and alcohols and tars that come off like how they break down coal into gases and oils. But for non-consumption purposes adding methanol to ethanol may have desirable benefits for the application, and isn't just there to poison people to prevent consumption. Sometimes it might just be cheaper than regular ethanol if you are just going to burn it.

hilbert42 2y ago
"Methanol is always a purposefully added substance at some point if it is anywhere near poisonous levels." That's usually true. Adding methanol to ethanol can be either deliberate or accidental. Where I am (Australia) methanol and pyridine used to be added to ethanol as a denaturant so it could be sold without liquor tax and it was sold as 'Methylated Spirits' and labeled 'POISON'. If I recall the amount of methanol was 15% and the pyridine was 3%. Methanol was set at 15% with the deliberate intention of making the 'spirits' toxic and the pyridine to make it foul tasting (and pyridine itself is also toxic). At those percentages both denaturants were similar enough to ethanol as not to interfere significantly with its primarily purposes—as a solvent, fuel, etc. Nevertheless, that didn't deter diehard drinkers/alcoholics from consuming methylated spirits and the effects on their health were catastrophic—blindness and death. Several decades ago both methanol and pyridine were removed and replaced with denatonium (aka Bitrex) as the denaturant, which is not toxic at the level necessary for its purpose. Nevertheless, the product is still sold as 'Methylated Spirits' with the fine print calling it 'ethanol solution 95%, UN 1170', and the warning changed from 'POISON' to 'CAUTION'. The logic behind the change being that it was 'safer'—read it cost the State less in medical expenses. I think the UK has done something similar and no doubt a number of other countries have followed suit, except I believe the US makes ethanol harder to get and usually substitutes isopropanol/rubbing alcohol for domestic use (someone in the US please update me on the rules there). Since the advent of denatonium as a denaturant, it seems to me there is no need to add methanol and I reckon it ought to be highly illegal to do so. If ethanol/methanol mixtures are needed for some purpose then they should be strictly labeled and denatonium a mandated additive. What concerns me is the accidental addition of methanol to ethanol (to 'Methylated Spirits'). I use a lot of ethanol in the form of Methylated Spirits for cleaning and as a solvent as it's a much cheaper substitute for isopropanol and I've noticed occasionally that its odor is very different (once every 3 or 4 months on weekly purchases). In fact, I've noticed the odor of formaldehyde on more than one occasion (and that's not the only impurity I've detected by nose). This tells me there's very little control on the distribution of industrial solvents (in this class that is). I'd suggest tanks/tankers, etc. aren't properly flushed when changing product and or such. If distribution equipment isn't being cleaned properly then people aren't being careful and worse could easily happen. From my experience it seems to me it's still a very risky business to assume that 'industrial' ethanol is actually just that (95% ethanol, 5% H2O and trace denatonium). There's no way I'd ever risk drinking the stuff—that is assuming I could stand the taste of the excruciatingly bitter denatonium. I'd be interested to know how other countries now handle the rules in regard to ethanol distribution.