3 ms·

Isn't the output, the singular goal, always money? (As sad as that may be.)

deepsun 2y ago
Money is the measure of usefulness. By the way, why suddenly the money=bad sentiment is so popular? I thought USSR example loudly showed us what happens when people think that money is evil.
- musicale 2y ago
  When companies focus on profit at the expense of all other goals, the result is typically disadvantageous to customers, employees, and society at large. See also: crapification; financialization; parasitic private equity I can't speak for HN, but I imagine some readers are more interested in the benefits of cool technology beyond putting more money in the pockets of investors and management.
  - deepsun 2y ago
    > When companies focus on profit at the expense of all other goals, the result is typically disadvantageous to customers, employees, and society at large. I grew up in USSR and saw with my own eyes what happens when personal profit is not the #1 focus. Yes, _commercial_ companies should also focus on everything else as well, but profit must be #1. And the society steer the businesses towards good things by implementing laws that businesses must follow. Commercial corporations _exists_ to make money to shareholders. It's written in laws and company bylaws. That's exactly what society decided commercial companies should do. If a _commercial_ company puts something else before profits -- it can be sued by shareholders (lawsuits follow laws, aka boundaries put by society). And by the way, we already have framework to do your idea: companies can register as "non-profit" or "public benefit". So your suggestion is easily implemented today by forbidding commercial companies and only allowing non-profits or public benefit.
  - lanstin 2y ago
    That works out ok as long as they are one of a large numbers of producers, competing equally, without monopoly power or excessive physical power, for a large number of consumers free to Ursula their own best interest; a certain amount of information symmetry is also a necessary axiom. If instead you have a small number of monopolies with legislative capture, then you need them to be virtuous.
- Buttons840 2y ago
  Suddenly? Who first said money was the root of all evil?
  - deepsun 2y ago
    > The phrase "money is the root of all evil" is a common saying that originates from the Bible, specifically 1 Timothy 6:10, which actually states "For the love of money is the root of all evil," meaning it's not money itself that is evil, but the excessive desire for it and the actions people might take to acquire wealth that can lead to negative consequences like greed and unethical behavior. We in our company don't do anything unethical nor unlawful, but love money very much, and are very glad other people find our work useful. PS: Just remembered that many people who respect the Bible, for example members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, don't have any problems with money.
    - fellowniusmonk 2y ago
      1 Timothy 6:10. Kinds. All Kinds.
- bovermyer 2y ago
  "Money is the measure of usefulness?" Good lord. There's so much wrong with this statement that I doubt I can meaningfully respond to it. I'll try, though. If we have to reduce measures of usefulness to a single metric, then why not percentage of users who respond favorably? I daresay that people find air quite useful, and for the most part, air is free.
  - deepsun 2y ago
    Easy -- users often don't respond favorably about MAJOR spending categories that are absolutely required. For example -- there's big negative sentiment about healthcare and its costs, but I rarely hear favorable responses like "thank you the country for we have healthcare". Or "thank you military that we haven't got invaded yet" (we are all users of the military). That doesn't depend on the country/region. "Users" are too short-sighted to invest in major spending categories. Only the countries who can reasonably push their population towards long-term investments still exist.
    - bovermyer 2y ago
      Your obsession with framing everything in terms of money is quite remarkable.
      - deepsun 2y ago
        Money is a bad measure of usefulness, but it's better than any other working measure.
        bovermyer 2y ago
        Fascinating. I disagree completely, of course. I imagine our backgrounds are wildly different.
        deepsun 2y ago
        Yes, seems like it. I grew up in USSR, and now appreciate capitalism a lot. Same thing with democracy by the way: yes it's a bad and stupid system, but I've seen the alternative. Many people expect democracy to make ideal and fair decisions, while I see it as just a protection against the most egregious and blatant violations. E.g. the US has "Deficient democracy" rating (only two parties), but it's still infinitely better than any dictatorship.
Rury 2y ago
Money is just a means to obtain goods and services. So no... money isn't really the goal.
- Buttons840 2y ago
  Yes, but people lose sight of this. I suppose in the context of this thread, we can look at the productivity of a system that includes money or does not. A small system, like a tire production line, can measure its productivity in terms of money, which is outside the system. But a large system, like society, includes money, and cannot measure its own productivity using internal things.
- fellowniusmonk 2y ago
  Money isn't the goal. It's much more important. It's both the measure, the scale, the environment, and the terms of exchange. It's the simplest globally agreed on proxy for the transmission of everything that exists. Thus money is a proxy for everything no matter how abstract or concrete, freedom, self determination, the ability to bring complex things in your imagination to fruition by enlisting the help of others. Money is nothing but... If I was a fish, money would be my water and my gills. Language & Communication itself is even less than money, it's just air vibrating or scribbles on paper, it has no purpose or meaning but what we give it. It's also the fundamental operating system and protocol of both individuals and humanity. Money is the knot that cannot be untied. Goodhart's law is everywhere and in all things.

Money is the measure of usefulness. By the way, why suddenly the money=bad sentiment is so popular? I thought USSR example loudly showed us what happens when people think that money is evil.

musicale 2y ago
When companies focus on profit at the expense of all other goals, the result is typically disadvantageous to customers, employees, and society at large. See also: crapification; financialization; parasitic private equity I can't speak for HN, but I imagine some readers are more interested in the benefits of cool technology beyond putting more money in the pockets of investors and management.
- deepsun 2y ago
  > When companies focus on profit at the expense of all other goals, the result is typically disadvantageous to customers, employees, and society at large. I grew up in USSR and saw with my own eyes what happens when personal profit is not the #1 focus. Yes, _commercial_ companies should also focus on everything else as well, but profit must be #1. And the society steer the businesses towards good things by implementing laws that businesses must follow. Commercial corporations _exists_ to make money to shareholders. It's written in laws and company bylaws. That's exactly what society decided commercial companies should do. If a _commercial_ company puts something else before profits -- it can be sued by shareholders (lawsuits follow laws, aka boundaries put by society). And by the way, we already have framework to do your idea: companies can register as "non-profit" or "public benefit". So your suggestion is easily implemented today by forbidding commercial companies and only allowing non-profits or public benefit.
- lanstin 2y ago
  That works out ok as long as they are one of a large numbers of producers, competing equally, without monopoly power or excessive physical power, for a large number of consumers free to Ursula their own best interest; a certain amount of information symmetry is also a necessary axiom. If instead you have a small number of monopolies with legislative capture, then you need them to be virtuous.
Buttons840 2y ago
Suddenly? Who first said money was the root of all evil?
- deepsun 2y ago
  > The phrase "money is the root of all evil" is a common saying that originates from the Bible, specifically 1 Timothy 6:10, which actually states "For the love of money is the root of all evil," meaning it's not money itself that is evil, but the excessive desire for it and the actions people might take to acquire wealth that can lead to negative consequences like greed and unethical behavior. We in our company don't do anything unethical nor unlawful, but love money very much, and are very glad other people find our work useful. PS: Just remembered that many people who respect the Bible, for example members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, don't have any problems with money.
  - fellowniusmonk 2y ago
    1 Timothy 6:10. Kinds. All Kinds.
bovermyer 2y ago
"Money is the measure of usefulness?" Good lord. There's so much wrong with this statement that I doubt I can meaningfully respond to it. I'll try, though. If we have to reduce measures of usefulness to a single metric, then why not percentage of users who respond favorably? I daresay that people find air quite useful, and for the most part, air is free.
- deepsun 2y ago
  Easy -- users often don't respond favorably about MAJOR spending categories that are absolutely required. For example -- there's big negative sentiment about healthcare and its costs, but I rarely hear favorable responses like "thank you the country for we have healthcare". Or "thank you military that we haven't got invaded yet" (we are all users of the military). That doesn't depend on the country/region. "Users" are too short-sighted to invest in major spending categories. Only the countries who can reasonably push their population towards long-term investments still exist.
  - bovermyer 2y ago
    Your obsession with framing everything in terms of money is quite remarkable.
    - deepsun 2y ago
      Money is a bad measure of usefulness, but it's better than any other working measure.
      - bovermyer 2y ago
        Fascinating. I disagree completely, of course. I imagine our backgrounds are wildly different.
        deepsun 2y ago
        Yes, seems like it. I grew up in USSR, and now appreciate capitalism a lot. Same thing with democracy by the way: yes it's a bad and stupid system, but I've seen the alternative. Many people expect democracy to make ideal and fair decisions, while I see it as just a protection against the most egregious and blatant violations. E.g. the US has "Deficient democracy" rating (only two parties), but it's still infinitely better than any dictatorship.

Rury 2y ago

Money is just a means to obtain goods and services. So no... money isn't really the goal.

Buttons840 2y ago
Yes, but people lose sight of this. I suppose in the context of this thread, we can look at the productivity of a system that includes money or does not. A small system, like a tire production line, can measure its productivity in terms of money, which is outside the system. But a large system, like society, includes money, and cannot measure its own productivity using internal things.
fellowniusmonk 2y ago
Money isn't the goal. It's much more important. It's both the measure, the scale, the environment, and the terms of exchange. It's the simplest globally agreed on proxy for the transmission of everything that exists. Thus money is a proxy for everything no matter how abstract or concrete, freedom, self determination, the ability to bring complex things in your imagination to fruition by enlisting the help of others. Money is nothing but... If I was a fish, money would be my water and my gills. Language & Communication itself is even less than money, it's just air vibrating or scribbles on paper, it has no purpose or meaning but what we give it. It's also the fundamental operating system and protocol of both individuals and humanity. Money is the knot that cannot be untied. Goodhart's law is everywhere and in all things.