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I think you missed some of the most important bits at the end: > But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people wil

I think you missed some of the most important bits at the end: > But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. (1 Tim 3, ESV) For good or for bad, Judeo Christian morality was always rooted in a fear of God. As the belief in God has warped and wained away from biblical moorings, we shouldn't be surprised that morality has gone with it. To such an extent that, seemingly, moral character has very little impact when evaluating leaders, as long as other ideological boxes are checked. On the other hand, given the context of this writing, it seems that these kinds of people are always present... in all times and all cultures. So maybe there isn't so much uniquely bad about our current times? I don't know, just wondering out loud.

MrMcCall 2y ago
> Judeo Christian morality was always rooted in a fear of God The Great(est) Command(ment) is "To love God with all your being, and then love your neighbor as yourself." Society improves a little when someone chooses to not do bad because they're afraid to get punished. Society improves much more when someone chooses to do good by having evolved their sense of ethics and self-control. Our most important human ability, and the reason we have a {moral compass, mind, and free will} is our ability to self-evolve our ideals, attitudes, and behaviors out of the selfish and animalistic towards the compassionate and humanitarian. Our Creator loves us and prefers us to live in peace and prosperity, but we must choose to implement such a societal system that better rewards virtue and minimizes the harms caused from vice. And such a system must be our choice (i.e. democracy) because there must be no compulsion in religion (which pervades life as an ethos of compassionately positive contribution to the whole). > As the belief in God has warped and wained away from biblical moorings, we shouldn't be surprised that morality has gone with it. To such an extent that, seemingly, moral character has very little impact when evaluating leaders, as long as other ideological boxes are checked. Yes, that is indeed the case, but Christianity is no more or less guilty than most all of the other religions, their majorities taking the selfishly divisive road over the compassionately unifying road. > it seems that these kinds of people are always present... in all times and all cultures. As we live and breath, my friend. We are each those people, to more or less extent as per the predilections of our individual nature and those of the cultures we inhabit. The key is that we all(1) have the power both how to learn to be better as well as to choose to be better. [(1) There are the mentally ill and physically damaged and developmentally disabled folks that do not have the power to control themselves, but they are very rare.] The universe helps, though, in that the human-only Law of Karma determines our happiness or unhappiness by how we have treated others. It is the applied aspect of "You reap what you sow." It is our environment's feedback system to let us know if we've been naughty or nice, whether we are headed in the right direction or not. > So maybe there isn't so much uniquely bad about our current times? Not for individual human beings; vice is vice and virtue is virtue and we have many inertias against our becoming better. But our technological progress has facilitated greater destruction to the Earth via war and pollution. It drives a more efficient systematic greed that oppresses the poor more brutally, and the rich have used their power to hire attorneys to craft the laws that let them rise above other human beings like royalty. The codifying of the MBA ethos that changed the "personnel" department into "human resources" is quite the tell.
- n4r9 2y ago
  To be fair though, Jesus also said > I tell you, my friends, don’t be afraid of people. They can kill the body, but after that they can do nothing more to hurt you. I will show you the one to fear. You should fear God, who has the power to kill you and also to throw you into hell. Yes, he is the one you should fear. So although love may be seen as the primary teaching, there is definitely a dollop of fear mixed in their. This is common in Abrahamic traditions, with some notable exceptions such as the early Sufi mystic Rabia Basri, who said > If I adore You out of fear of Hell, burn me in Hell! If I adore you out of desire for Paradise, lock me out of Paradise. But if I adore you for Yourself alone, do not deny to me Your eternal beauty. Conversely, many Eastern religions encourage individuals to understand fear's root causes and work towards overcoming them through mindfulness and insight.
  - MrMcCall 2y ago
    Well, most -- like 90% -- people don't have any contact with God or Its teachings and, therefore, have no interest in learning the principles It has laid down for how we should live our life. As such, fear is a great way to get people to jump start entering the Path of Love. No one should be comfortable living their life in ignorance to the gentle lovingkindess we should be working to transform ourself into. It certainly kick-started my reestablishing my connection with God in my late 20s. As to Rabia Basri's quote, I don't get that from my Sufi Murshid's teachings. Though he has passed away now, our fundamental command is: Always love. Teach to always love. Never hate. Teach to never hate. But I think the gist of what Basri is saying is that we should desire to self-evolve ourselves towards the beauty best exemplified by the Unfathomable beauty of our Creator, for love's sake, for our neighbors' sakes. In that vein, I don't even know if we're Sunni or Shi'ite, because it doesn't matter. We are to not divide into sects, and that extends to all of humankind, where one's religious path and even lack thereof should not be a divisive factor in our love for one another. Love is our responsibility alone, not that of those we encounter. We are merely to exemplify love and then teach it as best we can, to those who care to learn. > Conversely, many Eastern religions encourage individuals to understand fear's root causes and work towards overcoming them through mindfulness and insight. There is great wisdom in tackling fear's causes and unsavory effects, as much of fear's causes and results are due to the internal enemy's (nefs, selfish ego) urgings and justifications. The Quran says of those who love God with all their being: On them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. That is a person who has both "mindfulness and insight", because they have not only put their entire life in God's hands, but understand that the past is in the past, and all we can do is keep doing God's loving work going forward. Thanks you for this loving conversation this morning. Peace be with you, friend. I love you, and am at your service.

MrMcCall 2y ago

> Judeo Christian morality was always rooted in a fear of God The Great(est) Command(ment) is "To love God with all your being, and then love your neighbor as yourself." Society improves a little when someone chooses to not do bad because they're afraid to get punished. Society improves much more when someone chooses to do good by having evolved their sense of ethics and self-control. Our most important human ability, and the reason we have a {moral compass, mind, and free will} is our ability to self-evolve our ideals, attitudes, and behaviors out of the selfish and animalistic towards the compassionate and humanitarian. Our Creator loves us and prefers us to live in peace and prosperity, but we must choose to implement such a societal system that better rewards virtue and minimizes the harms caused from vice. And such a system must be our choice (i.e. democracy) because there must be no compulsion in religion (which pervades life as an ethos of compassionately positive contribution to the whole). > As the belief in God has warped and wained away from biblical moorings, we shouldn't be surprised that morality has gone with it. To such an extent that, seemingly, moral character has very little impact when evaluating leaders, as long as other ideological boxes are checked. Yes, that is indeed the case, but Christianity is no more or less guilty than most all of the other religions, their majorities taking the selfishly divisive road over the compassionately unifying road. > it seems that these kinds of people are always present... in all times and all cultures. As we live and breath, my friend. We are each those people, to more or less extent as per the predilections of our individual nature and those of the cultures we inhabit. The key is that we all(1) have the power both how to learn to be better as well as to choose to be better. [(1) There are the mentally ill and physically damaged and developmentally disabled folks that do not have the power to control themselves, but they are very rare.] The universe helps, though, in that the human-only Law of Karma determines our happiness or unhappiness by how we have treated others. It is the applied aspect of "You reap what you sow." It is our environment's feedback system to let us know if we've been naughty or nice, whether we are headed in the right direction or not. > So maybe there isn't so much uniquely bad about our current times? Not for individual human beings; vice is vice and virtue is virtue and we have many inertias against our becoming better. But our technological progress has facilitated greater destruction to the Earth via war and pollution. It drives a more efficient systematic greed that oppresses the poor more brutally, and the rich have used their power to hire attorneys to craft the laws that let them rise above other human beings like royalty. The codifying of the MBA ethos that changed the "personnel" department into "human resources" is quite the tell.

n4r9 2y ago
To be fair though, Jesus also said > I tell you, my friends, don’t be afraid of people. They can kill the body, but after that they can do nothing more to hurt you. I will show you the one to fear. You should fear God, who has the power to kill you and also to throw you into hell. Yes, he is the one you should fear. So although love may be seen as the primary teaching, there is definitely a dollop of fear mixed in their. This is common in Abrahamic traditions, with some notable exceptions such as the early Sufi mystic Rabia Basri, who said > If I adore You out of fear of Hell, burn me in Hell! If I adore you out of desire for Paradise, lock me out of Paradise. But if I adore you for Yourself alone, do not deny to me Your eternal beauty. Conversely, many Eastern religions encourage individuals to understand fear's root causes and work towards overcoming them through mindfulness and insight.
- MrMcCall 2y ago
  Well, most -- like 90% -- people don't have any contact with God or Its teachings and, therefore, have no interest in learning the principles It has laid down for how we should live our life. As such, fear is a great way to get people to jump start entering the Path of Love. No one should be comfortable living their life in ignorance to the gentle lovingkindess we should be working to transform ourself into. It certainly kick-started my reestablishing my connection with God in my late 20s. As to Rabia Basri's quote, I don't get that from my Sufi Murshid's teachings. Though he has passed away now, our fundamental command is: Always love. Teach to always love. Never hate. Teach to never hate. But I think the gist of what Basri is saying is that we should desire to self-evolve ourselves towards the beauty best exemplified by the Unfathomable beauty of our Creator, for love's sake, for our neighbors' sakes. In that vein, I don't even know if we're Sunni or Shi'ite, because it doesn't matter. We are to not divide into sects, and that extends to all of humankind, where one's religious path and even lack thereof should not be a divisive factor in our love for one another. Love is our responsibility alone, not that of those we encounter. We are merely to exemplify love and then teach it as best we can, to those who care to learn. > Conversely, many Eastern religions encourage individuals to understand fear's root causes and work towards overcoming them through mindfulness and insight. There is great wisdom in tackling fear's causes and unsavory effects, as much of fear's causes and results are due to the internal enemy's (nefs, selfish ego) urgings and justifications. The Quran says of those who love God with all their being: On them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. That is a person who has both "mindfulness and insight", because they have not only put their entire life in God's hands, but understand that the past is in the past, and all we can do is keep doing God's loving work going forward. Thanks you for this loving conversation this morning. Peace be with you, friend. I love you, and am at your service.