3 ms·

Unless you live on the border of Oregon or Montana. Or in a city.

by mulmen 2y ago

lxgr 2y ago
I live in a city, and I have no idea how much the total is going to be before going to checkout right now, so arguably that wouldn't be a change for the worse. This is at a merchant that, to say it lightly, has some prior knowledge of me and even has a drop-down menu to let me select the shipping destination out of my saved ones. So far, that's only used for determining shipping times and availabilities – so why not also display amounts post-tax?
- mulmen 2y ago
  On an ecommerce site where you already selected your destination sure, the total can be displayed in some cases. How should volume discounts, coupons, and shipping incentives be handled? What about a grocery store on the Oregon/Idaho border? Idaho charges sales tax to residents but that can be waived with an Oregon ID. Should this be reflected in the advertised price? And what about billboard or TV advertisements or even banner ads on a webpage?
  - lxgr 2y ago
    > How should volume discounts, coupons, and shipping incentives be handled? I don't care, to be honest. If the merchant knows I can definitely get the cheaper rate without jumping through extra hoops, I don't see a problem in showing the lower price. > What about a grocery store on the Oregon/Idaho border? Idaho charges sales tax to residents but that can be waived with an Oregon ID. Should this be reflected in the advertised price? Wow, really? Fascinating/frustrating! There's always one more layer, I guess. Maybe... show two prices then? (I've seen this in duty free stores: Sometimes there's a "with international boarding pass only" price.) > And what about billboard or TV advertisements or even banner ads on a webpage? That seems like a case where I'd be fine with the net price being displayed. And yeah, I realize that then all other stores would be screaming unfair discrimination because people will compare the competition's flyer price to the in-store label price and everything... Maybe the only solution really is to simplify the horror that is US sales tax, and that's obviously never happening. Think of all the jobs in tax preparation and software...
    - mulmen 2y ago
      > I don't care, to be honest. If the merchant knows I can definitely get the cheaper rate without jumping through extra hoops, I don't see a problem in showing the lower price. But that discount is contingent on what you might add to your cart in the future and the shipping options you choose. Items can have complex interactions when purchased together. This isn’t just tax. It’s shipping, discounts, gift wrap, and coupons. All of which are taxed and possibly at different rates. You have the luxury of not caring. The merchant doesn’t. > Wow, really? Fascinating/frustrating! That’s a tame example. If I buy a car in Oregon where there’s no sales tax I still might have to pay Washington use tax to get plates. This is still the case if I buy the car in Miami, or Toronto. So how does advertising work in that situation? https://dor.wa.gov/forms-publications/publications-subject/tax-topics/vehicles-brought-washington-out-state https://dor.wa.gov/forms-publications/publications-subject/t... > Maybe the only solution really is to simplify the horror that is US sales tax, and that's obviously never happening. Think of all the jobs in tax preparation and software... Our complex tax codes are not a conspiracy to create jobs in tax prep. The right to levy our own taxes was a primary motivation of the revolution. In our system of government power is decentralized. That means individual states, counties, and towns can charge their own taxes. Say my city votes to provide free residential broadband to residents and fund it with a telco tax on private ISP service. “Simplifying” the tax code by just not allowing the city to do that is literally antithetical to our society. It’s an undermining of the laboratory of democracy. That may sound hyperbolic but “I find this complexity confusing” just isn’t a compelling argument for kneecapping our democracy. Make everything as simple as possible but no simpler.
      - lxgr 2y ago
        > This isn’t just tax. It’s shipping, discounts, gift wrap, and coupons. All of which are taxed and possibly at different rates. You have the luxury of not caring. The merchant doesn’t. But that's already the case today. I see the price per item, not counting any potential bulk rebates or optional coupon codes, as it's not a priori clear what else I'll buy. On the other hand, sales tax can always be calculated per item sold, as far as I know. > Say my city votes to provide free residential broadband to residents and fund it with a telco tax on private ISP service. > “Simplifying” the tax code by just not allowing the city to do that is literally antithetical to our society. It’s an undermining of the laboratory of democracy. That argument does make some sense to me, but there are many other types of taxes cities and states could levy other than sales tax, which is extraordinarily complicated as you've demonstrated. > Our complex tax codes are not a conspiracy to create jobs in tax prep. [...] Make everything as simple as possible but no simpler. I agree, but also given the incentives here, I'd be surprised if that industry wouldn't put up heavy opposition if anybody seriously campaigned to simplify sales tax while avoiding the reduced autonomy/decentralization you mention. I'm all for avoiding Chesterton's Fence, but taking that way of thinking too far can cement the status quo beyond what's useful and resonable in many cases.

Unless you live on the border of Oregon or Montana. Or in a city.

by mulmen 2y ago

Unless you live on the border of Oregon or Montana. Or in a city.

lxgr 2y ago

I live in a city, and I have no idea how much the total is going to be before going to checkout right now, so arguably that wouldn't be a change for the worse. This is at a merchant that, to say it lightly, has some prior knowledge of me and even has a drop-down menu to let me select the shipping destination out of my saved ones. So far, that's only used for determining shipping times and availabilities – so why not also display amounts post-tax?

mulmen 2y ago
On an ecommerce site where you already selected your destination sure, the total can be displayed in some cases. How should volume discounts, coupons, and shipping incentives be handled? What about a grocery store on the Oregon/Idaho border? Idaho charges sales tax to residents but that can be waived with an Oregon ID. Should this be reflected in the advertised price? And what about billboard or TV advertisements or even banner ads on a webpage?
- lxgr 2y ago
  > How should volume discounts, coupons, and shipping incentives be handled? I don't care, to be honest. If the merchant knows I can definitely get the cheaper rate without jumping through extra hoops, I don't see a problem in showing the lower price. > What about a grocery store on the Oregon/Idaho border? Idaho charges sales tax to residents but that can be waived with an Oregon ID. Should this be reflected in the advertised price? Wow, really? Fascinating/frustrating! There's always one more layer, I guess. Maybe... show two prices then? (I've seen this in duty free stores: Sometimes there's a "with international boarding pass only" price.) > And what about billboard or TV advertisements or even banner ads on a webpage? That seems like a case where I'd be fine with the net price being displayed. And yeah, I realize that then all other stores would be screaming unfair discrimination because people will compare the competition's flyer price to the in-store label price and everything... Maybe the only solution really is to simplify the horror that is US sales tax, and that's obviously never happening. Think of all the jobs in tax preparation and software...
  - mulmen 2y ago
    > I don't care, to be honest. If the merchant knows I can definitely get the cheaper rate without jumping through extra hoops, I don't see a problem in showing the lower price. But that discount is contingent on what you might add to your cart in the future and the shipping options you choose. Items can have complex interactions when purchased together. This isn’t just tax. It’s shipping, discounts, gift wrap, and coupons. All of which are taxed and possibly at different rates. You have the luxury of not caring. The merchant doesn’t. > Wow, really? Fascinating/frustrating! That’s a tame example. If I buy a car in Oregon where there’s no sales tax I still might have to pay Washington use tax to get plates. This is still the case if I buy the car in Miami, or Toronto. So how does advertising work in that situation? https://dor.wa.gov/forms-publications/publications-subject/tax-topics/vehicles-brought-washington-out-state https://dor.wa.gov/forms-publications/publications-subject/t... > Maybe the only solution really is to simplify the horror that is US sales tax, and that's obviously never happening. Think of all the jobs in tax preparation and software... Our complex tax codes are not a conspiracy to create jobs in tax prep. The right to levy our own taxes was a primary motivation of the revolution. In our system of government power is decentralized. That means individual states, counties, and towns can charge their own taxes. Say my city votes to provide free residential broadband to residents and fund it with a telco tax on private ISP service. “Simplifying” the tax code by just not allowing the city to do that is literally antithetical to our society. It’s an undermining of the laboratory of democracy. That may sound hyperbolic but “I find this complexity confusing” just isn’t a compelling argument for kneecapping our democracy. Make everything as simple as possible but no simpler.
    - lxgr 2y ago
      > This isn’t just tax. It’s shipping, discounts, gift wrap, and coupons. All of which are taxed and possibly at different rates. You have the luxury of not caring. The merchant doesn’t. But that's already the case today. I see the price per item, not counting any potential bulk rebates or optional coupon codes, as it's not a priori clear what else I'll buy. On the other hand, sales tax can always be calculated per item sold, as far as I know. > Say my city votes to provide free residential broadband to residents and fund it with a telco tax on private ISP service. > “Simplifying” the tax code by just not allowing the city to do that is literally antithetical to our society. It’s an undermining of the laboratory of democracy. That argument does make some sense to me, but there are many other types of taxes cities and states could levy other than sales tax, which is extraordinarily complicated as you've demonstrated. > Our complex tax codes are not a conspiracy to create jobs in tax prep. [...] Make everything as simple as possible but no simpler. I agree, but also given the incentives here, I'd be surprised if that industry wouldn't put up heavy opposition if anybody seriously campaigned to simplify sales tax while avoiding the reduced autonomy/decentralization you mention. I'm all for avoiding Chesterton's Fence, but taking that way of thinking too far can cement the status quo beyond what's useful and resonable in many cases.