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I would count the "times" as terrible if we chose leaders with the following characteristics: - lovers of themselves - lovers of money - boastful - pro

I would count the "times" as terrible if we chose leaders with the following characteristics: - lovers of themselves - lovers of money - boastful - proud - abusive - ungrateful - without love - unforgiving - slanderous - without self-control - brutal - not lovers of the good - treacherous - rash - conceited - lovers of pleasure - hypocritical I think we should have nothing to do with such people. Certainly we should not be electing them to office. That would be a terrible idea, IMO.

ikekkdcjkfke 2y ago
Anybody with any sort of ambition will display those in some shape Edit: idk really, but toxic/fake positivity is not helpful in a competitve env, and to sales is just lying/over promising
- trescenzi 2y ago
  See Douglas Adams’ quote about electing leaders: > anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others. -- Winston Churchill
    - drewcoo 2y ago
      Churchill said "_it has been said that_ democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time," so Churchill himself acknowledged that the quote wasn't his.
- MrMcCall 2y ago
  > Anybody with any sort of ambition will display those in some shape There's an important difference between ambition for selfish gain and ambition to better help others. > but toxic/fake positivity is not helpful in a competitve env That's why I counsel real positivity that comes from having tuned one's moral compass towards compassion, or at least trying to. As to competitive environs, we would be much less wasteful and destructive if we cooperated instead of competing. > sales is just lying/over promising Merlin explained in Excalibur that honesty is the most important virtue via, "When a man lies, he murders some part of the world."
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    > As to competitive environs, we would be much less wasteful and destructive if we cooperated instead of competing. The communist countries have some of the most polluted areas on the planet. > There's an important difference between ambition for selfish gain and ambition to better help others. Everybody is selfish. The beauty of the free market is it enables selfish behavior to help others. All attempts at creating selfless societies have resulted in misery and poverty.
    - MrMcCall 2y ago
      > The communist countries have some of the most polluted areas on the planet. They were not cooperating, my friend, they were manifesting a ruling class that was above the law and pillaged the land for personal gain and sometimes even for the state. > Everybody is selfish. We are only as selfish as we choose to be, likewise our sense of ethics is only as developed as the virtues we embrace. Yes, we begin life selfish and most of our cultures are selfishly oriented towards others, but these are all the result of the citizens' choices. And, yes, our beliefs are chosen as well, and are as adaptable as we like. > The beauty of the free market is it enables selfish behavior to help others. I would say, rather, that the free market is good at letting people act selfishly, for either good or ill. That's why I like my capitalism with fetters, plenty of fetters. But, yeah, capitalism that doesn't destroy the powerless is the best path forward. > All attempts at creating selfless societies have resulted in misery and poverty. No, most humans that say they're creating selfless societies are really just grifters who want to be the new royalty. Selfishness always results in misery on some level, for some person or persons. We can develop systems that reward those who innovate and improve our life on Earth, without jeopardizing our environment and the peace among people. We could choose that, my friend. The problem is that most people don't care enough about others to be generous. We could each choose to learn how to be virtuous and then dedicate ourselves to helping implement a compassionate, sensible, and sustainable world society. All that's holding us back is our unwillingness to admit we each have the ability to be a part of the solution, as opposed to our currently sadass status quo.
      - WalterBright 2y ago
WalterBright 2y ago
"such people" are all of us.
- MrMcCall 2y ago
  We all start that way, both 50% selfish and 50% selfless, but we are each capable of self-evolving our selfish vices into their corresponding compassionate virtues. I consider the greatest song of all time to be "Love is the Truth" by Jack White, whose chorus is: It's the right thing to do And you know it And it's inside of you So just show it Love is the truth And it's inside of you (bop ba ba ba ba) It's the right thing to do We each have the choice to embrace greater compassion for others in our lives. That thing inside us that tells us we can't, or that guy's a liar, or he's trying to convert you to his religion, or he's trying to get your money -- that thing is the liar. It is arguing against our human race's embracing love, and is brutally successful at convincing us to act out of our selfish ego, which is what it spurns and goads. It is pleading for its life, that selfish ego inside each of us. It knows that embracing the Path of Love, it will wither away and be utterly replaced by the joy of loving service to all those we come into contact with. That negative force presses upon our thoughts and feelings, and is our downfall should we not fight it and try to become virtuous. We must try with all our heart, my friend, and our only hope is to beseech the Creator of this magnificent and mysterious universe. "The Way goes in." --Rumi
TrackerFF 2y ago
That's narcissism. The thing with narcissists is that they're extremely confident. People love confident leaders, even if they're terrible in every other way. As the recent US election has shown, it's not what you say - but how you say it, that counts. Hell, you see this with startups, too. When a founder appears extremely passionate and enthusiastic, pitching something as if they're at the top of the world, investors are willing to suspend their disbelief. One can get away with lots of things, if you're just confident enough.
- ElatedOwl 2y ago
  > As the recent US election has shown, it's not what you say - but how you say it, that counts. Are you implying that Biden spoke with more confidence than Trump, but Harris did not?
- MrMcCall 2y ago
  Confidence game, or "con game" as we call it in english, relies on the gullibility of the mark, the target of the swindle. We can only hone our perception of what people are really up to by sharpening our own moral compass and then acting virtuously as an act of volitional self-evolution. Once one begins learning how to be more virtuous and behaves appropriately, one gets better at recognizing the vices other people manifest, e.g.: greed, dishonesty, hate, enmity, jealousy/envy, ... But, yeah, they sure do take the rubes for a ride, don't they? Yes, narcissism is the apotheosis of selfishness. Compassion for others is the most important tool we have to combat its tendencies within our own hearts and minds. And, yes, we all have selfishness in us, and it is a long road to rid ourselves of it all, though I'm not speaking from even within sight of that glorious achievement.
rsyring 2y ago
I think you missed some of the most important bits at the end: > But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. (1 Tim 3, ESV) For good or for bad, Judeo Christian morality was always rooted in a fear of God. As the belief in God has warped and wained away from biblical moorings, we shouldn't be surprised that morality has gone with it. To such an extent that, seemingly, moral character has very little impact when evaluating leaders, as long as other ideological boxes are checked. On the other hand, given the context of this writing, it seems that these kinds of people are always present... in all times and all cultures. So maybe there isn't so much uniquely bad about our current times? I don't know, just wondering out loud.
- MrMcCall 2y ago
  > Judeo Christian morality was always rooted in a fear of God The Great(est) Command(ment) is "To love God with all your being, and then love your neighbor as yourself." Society improves a little when someone chooses to not do bad because they're afraid to get punished. Society improves much more when someone chooses to do good by having evolved their sense of ethics and self-control. Our most important human ability, and the reason we have a {moral compass, mind, and free will} is our ability to self-evolve our ideals, attitudes, and behaviors out of the selfish and animalistic towards the compassionate and humanitarian. Our Creator loves us and prefers us to live in peace and prosperity, but we must choose to implement such a societal system that better rewards virtue and minimizes the harms caused from vice. And such a system must be our choice (i.e. democracy) because there must be no compulsion in religion (which pervades life as an ethos of compassionately positive contribution to the whole). > As the belief in God has warped and wained away from biblical moorings, we shouldn't be surprised that morality has gone with it. To such an extent that, seemingly, moral character has very little impact when evaluating leaders, as long as other ideological boxes are checked. Yes, that is indeed the case, but Christianity is no more or less guilty than most all of the other religions, their majorities taking the selfishly divisive road over the compassionately unifying road. > it seems that these kinds of people are always present... in all times and all cultures. As we live and breath, my friend. We are each those people, to more or less extent as per the predilections of our individual nature and those of the cultures we inhabit. The key is that we all(1) have the power both how to learn to be better as well as to choose to be better. [(1) There are the mentally ill and physically damaged and developmentally disabled folks that do not have the power to control themselves, but they are very rare.] The universe helps, though, in that the human-only Law of Karma determines our happiness or unhappiness by how we have treated others. It is the applied aspect of "You reap what you sow." It is our environment's feedback system to let us know if we've been naughty or nice, whether we are headed in the right direction or not. > So maybe there isn't so much uniquely bad about our current times? Not for individual human beings; vice is vice and virtue is virtue and we have many inertias against our becoming better. But our technological progress has facilitated greater destruction to the Earth via war and pollution. It drives a more efficient systematic greed that oppresses the poor more brutally, and the rich have used their power to hire attorneys to craft the laws that let them rise above other human beings like royalty. The codifying of the MBA ethos that changed the "personnel" department into "human resources" is quite the tell.

ikekkdcjkfke 2y ago

Anybody with any sort of ambition will display those in some shape Edit: idk really, but toxic/fake positivity is not helpful in a competitve env, and to sales is just lying/over promising

trescenzi 2y ago
See Douglas Adams’ quote about electing leaders: > anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.
- WalterBright 2y ago
  Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others. -- Winston Churchill
  - drewcoo 2y ago
    Churchill said "_it has been said that_ democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time," so Churchill himself acknowledged that the quote wasn't his.
MrMcCall 2y ago
> Anybody with any sort of ambition will display those in some shape There's an important difference between ambition for selfish gain and ambition to better help others. > but toxic/fake positivity is not helpful in a competitve env That's why I counsel real positivity that comes from having tuned one's moral compass towards compassion, or at least trying to. As to competitive environs, we would be much less wasteful and destructive if we cooperated instead of competing. > sales is just lying/over promising Merlin explained in Excalibur that honesty is the most important virtue via, "When a man lies, he murders some part of the world."
- WalterBright 2y ago
  > As to competitive environs, we would be much less wasteful and destructive if we cooperated instead of competing. The communist countries have some of the most polluted areas on the planet. > There's an important difference between ambition for selfish gain and ambition to better help others. Everybody is selfish. The beauty of the free market is it enables selfish behavior to help others. All attempts at creating selfless societies have resulted in misery and poverty.
  - MrMcCall 2y ago
    > The communist countries have some of the most polluted areas on the planet. They were not cooperating, my friend, they were manifesting a ruling class that was above the law and pillaged the land for personal gain and sometimes even for the state. > Everybody is selfish. We are only as selfish as we choose to be, likewise our sense of ethics is only as developed as the virtues we embrace. Yes, we begin life selfish and most of our cultures are selfishly oriented towards others, but these are all the result of the citizens' choices. And, yes, our beliefs are chosen as well, and are as adaptable as we like. > The beauty of the free market is it enables selfish behavior to help others. I would say, rather, that the free market is good at letting people act selfishly, for either good or ill. That's why I like my capitalism with fetters, plenty of fetters. But, yeah, capitalism that doesn't destroy the powerless is the best path forward. > All attempts at creating selfless societies have resulted in misery and poverty. No, most humans that say they're creating selfless societies are really just grifters who want to be the new royalty. Selfishness always results in misery on some level, for some person or persons. We can develop systems that reward those who innovate and improve our life on Earth, without jeopardizing our environment and the peace among people. We could choose that, my friend. The problem is that most people don't care enough about others to be generous. We could each choose to learn how to be virtuous and then dedicate ourselves to helping implement a compassionate, sensible, and sustainable world society. All that's holding us back is our unwillingness to admit we each have the ability to be a part of the solution, as opposed to our currently sadass status quo.
    - WalterBright 2y ago

WalterBright 2y ago

"such people" are all of us.

MrMcCall 2y ago
We all start that way, both 50% selfish and 50% selfless, but we are each capable of self-evolving our selfish vices into their corresponding compassionate virtues. I consider the greatest song of all time to be "Love is the Truth" by Jack White, whose chorus is: It's the right thing to do And you know it And it's inside of you So just show it Love is the truth And it's inside of you (bop ba ba ba ba) It's the right thing to do We each have the choice to embrace greater compassion for others in our lives. That thing inside us that tells us we can't, or that guy's a liar, or he's trying to convert you to his religion, or he's trying to get your money -- that thing is the liar. It is arguing against our human race's embracing love, and is brutally successful at convincing us to act out of our selfish ego, which is what it spurns and goads. It is pleading for its life, that selfish ego inside each of us. It knows that embracing the Path of Love, it will wither away and be utterly replaced by the joy of loving service to all those we come into contact with. That negative force presses upon our thoughts and feelings, and is our downfall should we not fight it and try to become virtuous. We must try with all our heart, my friend, and our only hope is to beseech the Creator of this magnificent and mysterious universe. "The Way goes in." --Rumi

TrackerFF 2y ago

That's narcissism. The thing with narcissists is that they're extremely confident. People love confident leaders, even if they're terrible in every other way. As the recent US election has shown, it's not what you say - but how you say it, that counts. Hell, you see this with startups, too. When a founder appears extremely passionate and enthusiastic, pitching something as if they're at the top of the world, investors are willing to suspend their disbelief. One can get away with lots of things, if you're just confident enough.

ElatedOwl 2y ago
> As the recent US election has shown, it's not what you say - but how you say it, that counts. Are you implying that Biden spoke with more confidence than Trump, but Harris did not?
MrMcCall 2y ago
Confidence game, or "con game" as we call it in english, relies on the gullibility of the mark, the target of the swindle. We can only hone our perception of what people are really up to by sharpening our own moral compass and then acting virtuously as an act of volitional self-evolution. Once one begins learning how to be more virtuous and behaves appropriately, one gets better at recognizing the vices other people manifest, e.g.: greed, dishonesty, hate, enmity, jealousy/envy, ... But, yeah, they sure do take the rubes for a ride, don't they? Yes, narcissism is the apotheosis of selfishness. Compassion for others is the most important tool we have to combat its tendencies within our own hearts and minds. And, yes, we all have selfishness in us, and it is a long road to rid ourselves of it all, though I'm not speaking from even within sight of that glorious achievement.

rsyring 2y ago

I think you missed some of the most important bits at the end: > But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. (1 Tim 3, ESV) For good or for bad, Judeo Christian morality was always rooted in a fear of God. As the belief in God has warped and wained away from biblical moorings, we shouldn't be surprised that morality has gone with it. To such an extent that, seemingly, moral character has very little impact when evaluating leaders, as long as other ideological boxes are checked. On the other hand, given the context of this writing, it seems that these kinds of people are always present... in all times and all cultures. So maybe there isn't so much uniquely bad about our current times? I don't know, just wondering out loud.

MrMcCall 2y ago
> Judeo Christian morality was always rooted in a fear of God The Great(est) Command(ment) is "To love God with all your being, and then love your neighbor as yourself." Society improves a little when someone chooses to not do bad because they're afraid to get punished. Society improves much more when someone chooses to do good by having evolved their sense of ethics and self-control. Our most important human ability, and the reason we have a {moral compass, mind, and free will} is our ability to self-evolve our ideals, attitudes, and behaviors out of the selfish and animalistic towards the compassionate and humanitarian. Our Creator loves us and prefers us to live in peace and prosperity, but we must choose to implement such a societal system that better rewards virtue and minimizes the harms caused from vice. And such a system must be our choice (i.e. democracy) because there must be no compulsion in religion (which pervades life as an ethos of compassionately positive contribution to the whole). > As the belief in God has warped and wained away from biblical moorings, we shouldn't be surprised that morality has gone with it. To such an extent that, seemingly, moral character has very little impact when evaluating leaders, as long as other ideological boxes are checked. Yes, that is indeed the case, but Christianity is no more or less guilty than most all of the other religions, their majorities taking the selfishly divisive road over the compassionately unifying road. > it seems that these kinds of people are always present... in all times and all cultures. As we live and breath, my friend. We are each those people, to more or less extent as per the predilections of our individual nature and those of the cultures we inhabit. The key is that we all(1) have the power both how to learn to be better as well as to choose to be better. [(1) There are the mentally ill and physically damaged and developmentally disabled folks that do not have the power to control themselves, but they are very rare.] The universe helps, though, in that the human-only Law of Karma determines our happiness or unhappiness by how we have treated others. It is the applied aspect of "You reap what you sow." It is our environment's feedback system to let us know if we've been naughty or nice, whether we are headed in the right direction or not. > So maybe there isn't so much uniquely bad about our current times? Not for individual human beings; vice is vice and virtue is virtue and we have many inertias against our becoming better. But our technological progress has facilitated greater destruction to the Earth via war and pollution. It drives a more efficient systematic greed that oppresses the poor more brutally, and the rich have used their power to hire attorneys to craft the laws that let them rise above other human beings like royalty. The codifying of the MBA ethos that changed the "personnel" department into "human resources" is quite the tell.