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Surprised by all the negativity here. The USA benefits enormously from skilled immigration: "doubling the size of the US H1B visa program increases US and EU g

Surprised by all the negativity here. The USA benefits enormously from skilled immigration: "doubling the size of the US H1B visa program increases US and EU growth by 4% in the long-run" From a recent paper here: https://academic.oup.com/qje/advance-article-abstract/doi/10.1093/qje/qjae040/7912563 https://academic.oup.com/qje/advance-article-abstract/doi/10...

tokioyoyo 2y ago
It’s a slowdown in tech recruitment, so it is fair for citizens to think for themselves first. There are quite a lot of candidates that can fulfill most of the roles, and it has bad optics when the government tries to prioritize others. Disclaimer: I don’t live in the states, but I can understand the frustration.
- ponty_rick 2y ago
  That would work in the short term. In the long term, jobs would leave the USA so companies won't have to deal with immigration uncertainties.
  - tokioyoyo 2y ago
    Doesn’t really matter. People won’t care about long term consequences if they’re experiencing hardships right now. It’s easy to say this when we have jobs, but if I didn’t have one, I would never want my government to prioritize others.
- hx8 2y ago
  Tech isn't a zero sum game, it's a growth market. If some H-1B talent helps grow a company faster, then they can increase their own citizen employee count faster.
  - simoncion 2y ago
    > ...it's a growth market. Not when it's in fashion to perform large traditional layoffs and "stealth" layoffs via RTO mandates and other unpleasantness. Maybe things will substantially change within a year or two, but I'm skeptical.
  - tokioyoyo 2y ago
    That tracks only when it’s not taking 6+ months to find a stable job. It’s not really a growth market right now, and anyone who is on the hiring end/looking for a job can attest.
punksatoni 2y ago
You have to first answer why few locals outside Stanford-Berkeley-MIT-CMU are hired out of school. Is it because all non-top-4 schools under prepare students? Is it before foreign workers are that much better? Or is it because companies are looking for underpaid workers they can abuse and keep in a state of limbo? If CS degrees from non-top-4 schools are not valuable, best to get that out so US students are not studying useless degrees.
- doug_durham 2y ago
  That's simply not true. You have no data to back that cynical view.
- titanomachy 2y ago
  At the moment, at least in the trillion-dollar web companies, it seems not many people are being hired straight out of school at all. A new grad would have to really stand out to get hired in a field of experienced candidates. The potential cost savings of hiring a new grad doesn't seem to matter much to these companies. In the past, I've seen a lot of new-grad hires from the top 30 or so schools, but not so many from the top 5. More likely Michigan, Maryland, or Washington than Stanford or MIT (I'm on the West Coast). Pandemic-era Stripe was an exception, they seemed to hire only top 5, but they were also offering outrageous pay at that time. Someone graduating from a school not in the top 30 probably needs to adjust their expectations away from Google or Meta, at least for a first job, unless they have good connections and interview very well. Back to your original point though, I think it's plausible that most schools not in the top 30 (charitably, top 50) are actually incapable of some combination of (1) attracting sufficiently smart and motivated students and (2) educating them adequately.
8f2ab37a-ed6c 2y ago
This is the bit that I've always found confusing. When it comes to blue collar jobs, people in the upper echelons will gladly advocate the wonders of millions of people entering the job market to compete with Americans. But as soon as it's their own market that introduces additional competition, they will advocate "just pay people more, the job seekers exist, just not at the wages employers are offering, this extra competition only depresses American wages". Which one is it? Is it "competition for other classes, no competition for my class please"?
- macintux 2y ago
  There are many, many blue collar jobs which Americans don’t want to do at the prevailing wages (or at all). Agriculture is a prime example of this. There are relatively few high skilled, high paying jobs which Americans don’t want to do.
  - 8f2ab37a-ed6c 2y ago
    Again, why is the answer in agriculture to simply not increase wages? Someone’s willing to pick berries for $100/h I’m sure. Does it make berries unsustainable as a business? Likely, but isn’t that an argument for moving away from industries that can only survive on exploitation of undocumented third world labor?
    - JackYoustra 2y ago
      Ah, the argument is following it: the berries will still be picked in other countries for substantially lower wages and worse conditions than the wages or conditions (partially) of undocumented workers here. Even our worst jobs are substantially better (usually ~3x) than the average job of many countries, to say nothing about the huge gulf in security and institutions you get form living here.
      - 8f2ab37a-ed6c 2y ago
        That's also the argument that Bryan Caplan has been making for years in favor of open borders. I genuinely don't know what to make of it, I get the moral argument within it.
n144q 2y ago
I am not surprised. People don't like the fact that they actually need to be competitive in skills to get a job. Had there been no H-1Bs, they could submit a resume and immediately get a job offer! No joke. I look around in my company, Indians and Chinese (among others) are good at their jobs and do amazing work. Some people just don't like that. They blame not being able to get a good job offer on Indians taking away the opportunity, not themselves being good developers. This post is the place where they can vent.
- acedTrex 2y ago
  You have had a very different experience with h1b workers then I have.
  - n144q 2y ago
    That says more about your company, and perhaps yourself, than anything else. Companies like Google and Meta don't pay people on H1B 400k/yr just so that they walk around doing nothing.
    - happytoexplain 2y ago
      Yes, people at Meta and Google are highly paid and highly skilled. Some more or less than others, in relation to the average, just like anywhere else. What is your example demonstrating? >That says more about your company, and perhaps yourself, than anything else. Why? You're simply sure the parent and the companies they work for are bad at hiring, or racist, or what? You've offered nothing but a spit in the face.
      - bubblethink 2y ago
        No, it means that if you find yourself surrounded by mediocre/incompetent people, it means that you aren't working at a good place and that you may be mediocre too.
        2y ago
returningfory2 2y ago
Yeah. Do people really think that Silicon Valley would be such a huge economy (and a huge job creator for US citizens) if the US had never allowed immigrants to work there?
- liontwist 2y ago
  Which came first?
  - dboreham 2y ago
    Founders of the original valley companies were US born (except Shockley) but by the early 70s many of the key participants were foreigners (Grove, Faggin, ...).
    - liontwist 2y ago
      Yeah I would say very little about our current immigration situation resembles anything like 1970. So I’m not sure what the magic key to success is, that was alluded to other than “some people who were key were also not born in America”.
blululu 2y ago
There were >100000 layoffs at tech companies in the last 4 years because companies “overhired”. The government is finally taking action to address a “labor shortage” in this sector, because these same companies cannot find anyone to hire? Something doesn’t add up here but a lot of people who have been given a pretty raw deal.
- nopcode 2y ago
  How is it possible that the labour force suddenly produced all those tech workers domestically during a pandemic? What's not adding up is the qualifications of those people that got overhired.
happytoexplain 2y ago
I find it hard to believe you are surprised. In disagreement, sure. Surprised? This is an enormous, dramatic issue. People on both sides rightfully perceive it as borderline existential.
liontwist 2y ago
Who benefits from that growth of the native population is unemployed or underemployed?
xingped 2y ago
Really? You're surprised? You're surprised that a country and industry continuing to suffer from ongoing layoffs after layoffs, both stealth and honest, could possibly be negative about their government saying "yeah, let's bring in _more_ foreign workers while our own citizens can't find or keep their jobs"? The audacity!
citrin_ru 2y ago
As person who is not currently trying to immigrate to the US I have mixed feelings. One one hand I wish all best to people who do want to move to the US, on other hand a non-broken H-1B could accelerate brain drain from the country I'm living in (which will be one more blow to already struggling economy).
sneed_chucker 2y ago
"The USA benefits..." Who actually benefits?

tokioyoyo 2y ago

It’s a slowdown in tech recruitment, so it is fair for citizens to think for themselves first. There are quite a lot of candidates that can fulfill most of the roles, and it has bad optics when the government tries to prioritize others. Disclaimer: I don’t live in the states, but I can understand the frustration.

ponty_rick 2y ago
That would work in the short term. In the long term, jobs would leave the USA so companies won't have to deal with immigration uncertainties.
- tokioyoyo 2y ago
  Doesn’t really matter. People won’t care about long term consequences if they’re experiencing hardships right now. It’s easy to say this when we have jobs, but if I didn’t have one, I would never want my government to prioritize others.
hx8 2y ago
Tech isn't a zero sum game, it's a growth market. If some H-1B talent helps grow a company faster, then they can increase their own citizen employee count faster.
- simoncion 2y ago
  > ...it's a growth market. Not when it's in fashion to perform large traditional layoffs and "stealth" layoffs via RTO mandates and other unpleasantness. Maybe things will substantially change within a year or two, but I'm skeptical.
- tokioyoyo 2y ago
  That tracks only when it’s not taking 6+ months to find a stable job. It’s not really a growth market right now, and anyone who is on the hiring end/looking for a job can attest.

punksatoni 2y ago

You have to first answer why few locals outside Stanford-Berkeley-MIT-CMU are hired out of school. Is it because all non-top-4 schools under prepare students? Is it before foreign workers are that much better? Or is it because companies are looking for underpaid workers they can abuse and keep in a state of limbo? If CS degrees from non-top-4 schools are not valuable, best to get that out so US students are not studying useless degrees.

doug_durham 2y ago
That's simply not true. You have no data to back that cynical view.
titanomachy 2y ago
At the moment, at least in the trillion-dollar web companies, it seems not many people are being hired straight out of school at all. A new grad would have to really stand out to get hired in a field of experienced candidates. The potential cost savings of hiring a new grad doesn't seem to matter much to these companies. In the past, I've seen a lot of new-grad hires from the top 30 or so schools, but not so many from the top 5. More likely Michigan, Maryland, or Washington than Stanford or MIT (I'm on the West Coast). Pandemic-era Stripe was an exception, they seemed to hire only top 5, but they were also offering outrageous pay at that time. Someone graduating from a school not in the top 30 probably needs to adjust their expectations away from Google or Meta, at least for a first job, unless they have good connections and interview very well. Back to your original point though, I think it's plausible that most schools not in the top 30 (charitably, top 50) are actually incapable of some combination of (1) attracting sufficiently smart and motivated students and (2) educating them adequately.

8f2ab37a-ed6c 2y ago

This is the bit that I've always found confusing. When it comes to blue collar jobs, people in the upper echelons will gladly advocate the wonders of millions of people entering the job market to compete with Americans. But as soon as it's their own market that introduces additional competition, they will advocate "just pay people more, the job seekers exist, just not at the wages employers are offering, this extra competition only depresses American wages". Which one is it? Is it "competition for other classes, no competition for my class please"?

macintux 2y ago
There are many, many blue collar jobs which Americans don’t want to do at the prevailing wages (or at all). Agriculture is a prime example of this. There are relatively few high skilled, high paying jobs which Americans don’t want to do.
- 8f2ab37a-ed6c 2y ago
  Again, why is the answer in agriculture to simply not increase wages? Someone’s willing to pick berries for $100/h I’m sure. Does it make berries unsustainable as a business? Likely, but isn’t that an argument for moving away from industries that can only survive on exploitation of undocumented third world labor?
  - JackYoustra 2y ago
    Ah, the argument is following it: the berries will still be picked in other countries for substantially lower wages and worse conditions than the wages or conditions (partially) of undocumented workers here. Even our worst jobs are substantially better (usually ~3x) than the average job of many countries, to say nothing about the huge gulf in security and institutions you get form living here.
    - 8f2ab37a-ed6c 2y ago
      That's also the argument that Bryan Caplan has been making for years in favor of open borders. I genuinely don't know what to make of it, I get the moral argument within it.

n144q 2y ago

I am not surprised. People don't like the fact that they actually need to be competitive in skills to get a job. Had there been no H-1Bs, they could submit a resume and immediately get a job offer! No joke. I look around in my company, Indians and Chinese (among others) are good at their jobs and do amazing work. Some people just don't like that. They blame not being able to get a good job offer on Indians taking away the opportunity, not themselves being good developers. This post is the place where they can vent.

acedTrex 2y ago
You have had a very different experience with h1b workers then I have.
- n144q 2y ago
  That says more about your company, and perhaps yourself, than anything else. Companies like Google and Meta don't pay people on H1B 400k/yr just so that they walk around doing nothing.
  - happytoexplain 2y ago
    Yes, people at Meta and Google are highly paid and highly skilled. Some more or less than others, in relation to the average, just like anywhere else. What is your example demonstrating? >That says more about your company, and perhaps yourself, than anything else. Why? You're simply sure the parent and the companies they work for are bad at hiring, or racist, or what? You've offered nothing but a spit in the face.
    - bubblethink 2y ago
      No, it means that if you find yourself surrounded by mediocre/incompetent people, it means that you aren't working at a good place and that you may be mediocre too.
      - 2y ago

returningfory2 2y ago

Yeah. Do people really think that Silicon Valley would be such a huge economy (and a huge job creator for US citizens) if the US had never allowed immigrants to work there?

liontwist 2y ago
Which came first?
- dboreham 2y ago
  Founders of the original valley companies were US born (except Shockley) but by the early 70s many of the key participants were foreigners (Grove, Faggin, ...).
  - liontwist 2y ago
    Yeah I would say very little about our current immigration situation resembles anything like 1970. So I’m not sure what the magic key to success is, that was alluded to other than “some people who were key were also not born in America”.

blululu 2y ago

There were >100000 layoffs at tech companies in the last 4 years because companies “overhired”. The government is finally taking action to address a “labor shortage” in this sector, because these same companies cannot find anyone to hire? Something doesn’t add up here but a lot of people who have been given a pretty raw deal.

nopcode 2y ago
How is it possible that the labour force suddenly produced all those tech workers domestically during a pandemic? What's not adding up is the qualifications of those people that got overhired.

happytoexplain 2y ago

I find it hard to believe you are surprised. In disagreement, sure. Surprised? This is an enormous, dramatic issue. People on both sides rightfully perceive it as borderline existential.

liontwist 2y ago

Who benefits from that growth of the native population is unemployed or underemployed?

xingped 2y ago

Really? You're surprised? You're surprised that a country and industry continuing to suffer from ongoing layoffs after layoffs, both stealth and honest, could possibly be negative about their government saying "yeah, let's bring in _more_ foreign workers while our own citizens can't find or keep their jobs"? The audacity!

citrin_ru 2y ago

As person who is not currently trying to immigrate to the US I have mixed feelings. One one hand I wish all best to people who do want to move to the US, on other hand a non-broken H-1B could accelerate brain drain from the country I'm living in (which will be one more blow to already struggling economy).

sneed_chucker 2y ago

"The USA benefits..." Who actually benefits?