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> There is another reasonable solution for Microsoft here. The premise is that the device either has to be supported or open sourced (and therefore supportable

> There is another reasonable solution for Microsoft here. The premise is that the device either has to be supported or open sourced (and therefore supportable by the community). If the OEM is gone the firmware has to be open sourced because the company is no longer supporting it. Alright, lets say we do that. And let's say it's my PC OEM, and I'm completing my chapter 7 filings today, and I am going to ignore your law to open source my firmware. What are you going to do about it?

AnthonyMouse 2y ago
Why would it be different than ignoring any other law? The plaintiffs get an injunction and if the defendants ignore it they're held in contempt or get whatever criminal penalties are imposed for violating the law. If the concern is that the source code is going to be lost in dying companies, some people have suggested escrow requirements, e.g. you file the source code with the copyright office on the release date, not to be published until you discontinue support. You might conceivably file gibberish and not be discovered until the publication date but then we're back to personal liability for willful criminal acts, e.g. falsifying official documents.
- kube-system 2y ago
  As a product regulatory issue, you're right, it probably wouldn't be any different than other product regulatory law. They're mainly civil, (especially in terms of product warranty). In a chapter 7 case, civil penalties typically don't even get priority to creditors. But who cares?! The company is gone anyway. > If the concern is that the source code is going to be lost in dying companies, some people have suggested escrow requirements, e.g. you file the source code with the copyright office on the release date, not to be published until you discontinue support. You might conceivably file gibberish and not be discovered until the publication date but then we're back to personal liability for willful criminal acts, e.g. falsifying official documents. Even if you do convince Congress to approve the new billion dollar data center they'll need, I'm not sure the entire world really wants to put this in their build pipeline. It's an interesting thought experiment. I don't really think the public cares about source code as much as you do. And really, if they did, this wouldn't be a discussion.
  - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
    > As a product regulatory issue, you're right, it probably wouldn't be any different than other product regulatory law. They're mainly civil, (especially in terms of product warranty). In a chapter 7 case, civil penalties typically don't even get priority to creditors. But who cares?! The company is gone anyway. Even if the company is bankrupt, that doesn't mean they don't still have the source code. In general it would be on their computers which in bankruptcy would end up in the possession of the bankruptcy trustee, who would be ordered by the court to release it in accordance with the law. If instead someone walked off with it or something like that, now the bankrupt company isn't the issue and you're dealing with some kind of theft case. > Even if you do convince Congress to approve the new billion dollar data center they'll need, I'm not sure the entire world really wants to put this in their build pipeline. Source code generally isn't that big compared to other forms of media, compresses well and diffs well against variants. People regularly download the entire git history of a project by accident when they only want the latest version and don't even notice. Billion dollar data center seems like a stretch. > I don't really think the public cares about source code as much as you do. It's one of those things where people don't care about something because they don't understand it, not because it doesn't affect them. People care about things like "I have to buy a new phone for no good reason because the old one stopped getting updates" but if you ask them how that relates to open source they don't know the answer.
    - kube-system 2y ago
      > Even if the company is bankrupt, that doesn't mean they don't still have the source code. In general it would be on their computers If often is not. Most organizations use source control these days, and SaaS or otherwise third-party hosted offerings are very popular, and those may disappear as soon as bills stop being paid. And most endpoint disks are encrypted by default or by regulatory environment, so the source code on them isn't accessible without any employees present. And the source code of dependencies may be on a computer at a different company, accessible only with credentials of employees who were laid off last week. > It's one of those things where people don't care about something because they don't understand it, not because it doesn't affect them. > People care about things like "I have to buy a new phone for no good reason because the old one stopped getting updates" but if you ask them how that relates to open source they don't know the answer. No, source availability only affects developers and developer-adjacent people. And that's actually a great example. Nobody's auntie is installing LineageOS on their Pixel 1. It doesn't matter that the bootloader is unlocked. It doesn't matter if the OS on it has security vulnerabilities. Only nerds like the people on this forum care about this stuff. Everyone else either doesn't care and uses the old phone as is, or they care enough to go to the store and buy a new phone.

AnthonyMouse 2y ago

Why would it be different than ignoring any other law? The plaintiffs get an injunction and if the defendants ignore it they're held in contempt or get whatever criminal penalties are imposed for violating the law. If the concern is that the source code is going to be lost in dying companies, some people have suggested escrow requirements, e.g. you file the source code with the copyright office on the release date, not to be published until you discontinue support. You might conceivably file gibberish and not be discovered until the publication date but then we're back to personal liability for willful criminal acts, e.g. falsifying official documents.

kube-system 2y ago
As a product regulatory issue, you're right, it probably wouldn't be any different than other product regulatory law. They're mainly civil, (especially in terms of product warranty). In a chapter 7 case, civil penalties typically don't even get priority to creditors. But who cares?! The company is gone anyway. > If the concern is that the source code is going to be lost in dying companies, some people have suggested escrow requirements, e.g. you file the source code with the copyright office on the release date, not to be published until you discontinue support. You might conceivably file gibberish and not be discovered until the publication date but then we're back to personal liability for willful criminal acts, e.g. falsifying official documents. Even if you do convince Congress to approve the new billion dollar data center they'll need, I'm not sure the entire world really wants to put this in their build pipeline. It's an interesting thought experiment. I don't really think the public cares about source code as much as you do. And really, if they did, this wouldn't be a discussion.
- AnthonyMouse 2y ago
  > As a product regulatory issue, you're right, it probably wouldn't be any different than other product regulatory law. They're mainly civil, (especially in terms of product warranty). In a chapter 7 case, civil penalties typically don't even get priority to creditors. But who cares?! The company is gone anyway. Even if the company is bankrupt, that doesn't mean they don't still have the source code. In general it would be on their computers which in bankruptcy would end up in the possession of the bankruptcy trustee, who would be ordered by the court to release it in accordance with the law. If instead someone walked off with it or something like that, now the bankrupt company isn't the issue and you're dealing with some kind of theft case. > Even if you do convince Congress to approve the new billion dollar data center they'll need, I'm not sure the entire world really wants to put this in their build pipeline. Source code generally isn't that big compared to other forms of media, compresses well and diffs well against variants. People regularly download the entire git history of a project by accident when they only want the latest version and don't even notice. Billion dollar data center seems like a stretch. > I don't really think the public cares about source code as much as you do. It's one of those things where people don't care about something because they don't understand it, not because it doesn't affect them. People care about things like "I have to buy a new phone for no good reason because the old one stopped getting updates" but if you ask them how that relates to open source they don't know the answer.
  - kube-system 2y ago
    > Even if the company is bankrupt, that doesn't mean they don't still have the source code. In general it would be on their computers If often is not. Most organizations use source control these days, and SaaS or otherwise third-party hosted offerings are very popular, and those may disappear as soon as bills stop being paid. And most endpoint disks are encrypted by default or by regulatory environment, so the source code on them isn't accessible without any employees present. And the source code of dependencies may be on a computer at a different company, accessible only with credentials of employees who were laid off last week. > It's one of those things where people don't care about something because they don't understand it, not because it doesn't affect them. > People care about things like "I have to buy a new phone for no good reason because the old one stopped getting updates" but if you ask them how that relates to open source they don't know the answer. No, source availability only affects developers and developer-adjacent people. And that's actually a great example. Nobody's auntie is installing LineageOS on their Pixel 1. It doesn't matter that the bootloader is unlocked. It doesn't matter if the OS on it has security vulnerabilities. Only nerds like the people on this forum care about this stuff. Everyone else either doesn't care and uses the old phone as is, or they care enough to go to the store and buy a new phone.