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Related - Meta recently found that the models have not been trained on data that helps the models reason about other entities’ perceptions/knowledge. They creat

Related - Meta recently found that the models have not been trained on data that helps the models reason about other entities’ perceptions/knowledge. They created synthetic data for training and retested, and it improved substantially in ToM benchmarks. https://ai.meta.com/research/publications/explore-theory-of-mind-program-guided-adversarial-data-generation-for-theory-of-mind-reasoning/ https://ai.meta.com/research/publications/explore-theory-of-... I wonder if these models would perform better in this test since they have more examples of “reasoning about other agents’ states.”

trallnag 2y ago
Sounds like schools for humans
- shermantanktop 2y ago
  It always boggles me that education is commonly understood to be cramming skills and facts into students' heads, and yet so much of what students actually pick up is how to function in a peer group and society at large, including (eventually) recognizing other people as independent humans with knowledge and feelings and agency. Not sure why it takes 12-to-16 years, but it does seem to.
  - parsimo2010 2y ago
    > Not sure why it takes 12-to-16 years... Because the human body develops into maturity over ~18 years. It probably doesn't really take that long to teach people to cooperate, but if we pulled children from a social learning environment earlier they might overwrite that societal training with something they learn afterward.
  - nickpsecurity 2y ago
    I always tell people the most important lessons in life I learned started rights in public schools. We’re stuck with other people and all the games people play. I’ve always favored we teach more on character, people skills (esp body language or motivations), critical thinking, statistics, personal finance, etc. early on. Whatever we see playing out in a big way, esp skills crucial for personal advancement and democracy, should take place over maximizing the number of facts or rules memorized. Also, one might wonder why a school system would be designed to maximize compliance to authority figure’s seemingly meaningless rules and facts. If anything, it would produce people who were mediocre, but obedient, in authoritarian structures. Looking at the history of education, we find that might not be far from the truth.
    - klodolph 2y ago
      > Also, one might wonder why a school system would be designed to maximize compliance to authority figure’s seemingly meaningless rules and facts. I think the explanation is a little more mundane—it’s just an easier way to teach. Compliance becomes more and more valuable as classroom sizes increase—you can have a more extreme student-teacher ratio if your students are more compliant. Meaningless rules and facts provide benchmarks so teachers can easily prove to parents and administrators that students are meeting those benchmarks. People value accountability more than excellence… something that applies broadly in the corporate world as well. Somehow, despite this, we keep producing a steady stream of people with decent critical thinking skills, creativity, curiosity, and even rebellion. They aren’t served well by school but these people keep coming out of our school system nonetheless. Maybe it can be explained by some combination of instinctual defiance against authority figures and some individualistic cultural values; I’m not sure.
      - nickpsecurity 2y ago
        Re compliance for scaling It could be true. They sold it to us as a way to teach them. If it’s not teaching them, then they would be wasting the money of taxpayers to do something different. If parents wanted what you describe, or just a babysitter / teacher, then they might still support it. We need honesty, though, so parents can make tradeoffs among various systems. Also, the capitalists that originally funding and benefited from the public model also send their own kids to schools with different models. Those models consistently work better to produce future professionals, executives, and leaders. So, the question is: “Do none of the components of those private schools scale in a public model? Or do they have different goals for students of public schools and students of elite schools like their own kids?” Maybe we’re overly paranoid, though. Re good outcomes Well, there’s maybe two things going on. Made in God’s image, we’re imbued with free will, emotional motivations, the ability to learn, to adapt, to dream. Even in the hood, some kids I went to school with pushed themselves to do great things. If public school is decent or good, then our own nature will produce some amount of capable people. The real question is what percentage of people acquire fundamental abilities we want. Also, what percentage is successful? A worrying trend is how most teachers I know are pulling their hair out about how students can’t read, do math, anything. Examples from both people I know in real life and teachers I see online: “Young people in our college classes are currently reading at a sixth grade level. They don’t understand the materials. I have to re-write or explain them so they can follow along.” “I get my college students to do a phonics program. It doesn’t get them to a college level. It does usually increase their ability by a year or two level.” (Many seconded that online comment.) “I hate to say it but they’re just dumb now. If they learn anything, I feel like I accomplished something.” “My goal is to get them to focus on even one lesson for a few minutes and tell me even one word or character in the lesson. If they do that, we’re making progress.” Whatever system (and culture) that is doing this on a large scale is not educating people. Our professors should never have to give people Hooked on Phonics on college to get them past sixth grade level. This is so disasterous that ditching it for something else entirely or trying all kinds of local experiments makes a lot of sense.
  - logicchains 2y ago
    > so much of what students actually pick up is how to function in a peer group and society at large It teaches students how to function in an unnatural, dysfunctional, often toxic environment and as adults many have to spend years unlearning the bad habits they picked up. It also takes many years to learn as adults they shouldn't put up with the kind of bad treatment from bosses and peers that they had no way to distance themselves from in school.
    - klodolph 2y ago
      I find it hard to make impartial judgments about school because of my own personal experiences in school. I think your comment may reflect a similar lack of impartiality.
    - huuhee3 2y ago
      I agree. As far as human interaction goes, school taught me that to anyone who is different has no rights, and that to become successful and popular you should aim to be a bully who puts others down, even through use of violence. Similarly, to protect yourself from bullies violence is the only effective method. I'm not sure these lessons are what society should be teaching kids.
    - majormajor 2y ago
      How do you know that's "unnatural" and not an indicator that it's a very hard problem to organize people to behave in non-toxic, non-exploitive ways? Many adults, for instance, do end up receiving bad treatment throughout their lives. Not everyone is able to find jobs without that, for instance. Is that simply their fault for not trying hard enough, or learning a bad lesson that they should put up with it, or is it simply easier said than done?
  - jancsika 2y ago
    > Not sure why it takes 12-to-16 years Someone with domain expertise can expand on my ELI5 version below: The parts of the brain that handle socially appropriate behavior aren't fully baked until around the early twenties.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - robocat 2y ago
      Your ELI5 kinda ignores that the baking during teen years matters. Anecdotally socially inappropriate teen behaviour seems to be part of a subconscious learning process. But maybe pushing boundaries matters at all ages?
  - graemep 2y ago
    > so much of what students actually pick up is how to function in a peer group and society at large, That happens in any social setting, and I do not think school is even a good one. Many schools in the UK limit socialisation and tell students "you are here to learn, not socialise". People learned to social skills at least as well before going to school become normal, in my experience home educated kids are better socialised, etc.
    - __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
      Where else are you going to learn that the system is your enemy and the people around you are your friends? I feel like that was a valuable thing to have learned and as a child I didn't really have anywhere else to learn it.
      - ghssds 2y ago
        I actually learned that people around me are very much my enemies and the system don't care. Your school must have been tremendously good quality because I've felt isolated from school's day 1 and the feeling never went away forty years later.
        __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
        > Your school must have been tremendously good quality No, it was terrible, that's why I decided it was my enemy. And golly I think we knocked it down a peg or two by the time I was done there. But a few brilliant teachers managed to convince me not to hate the players, just the game.
        UltraSane 2y ago
        Ironically I had the exact same experience in school.
      - ben_w 2y ago
        That wasn't my experience at school. I learned that people don't think the way I do, that my peers can include sadists, that adults can make mistakes or be arses and you can be powerless to change their minds. Which was valuable, but it wasn't telling me anything about "the system" being flawed (unless you count the fact it was a Catholic school and that I stopped being Christian while in that school as a result of reading the Bible), which I had to figure out gradually in adulthood.

trallnag 2y ago

Sounds like schools for humans

shermantanktop 2y ago
It always boggles me that education is commonly understood to be cramming skills and facts into students' heads, and yet so much of what students actually pick up is how to function in a peer group and society at large, including (eventually) recognizing other people as independent humans with knowledge and feelings and agency. Not sure why it takes 12-to-16 years, but it does seem to.
- parsimo2010 2y ago
  > Not sure why it takes 12-to-16 years... Because the human body develops into maturity over ~18 years. It probably doesn't really take that long to teach people to cooperate, but if we pulled children from a social learning environment earlier they might overwrite that societal training with something they learn afterward.
- nickpsecurity 2y ago
  I always tell people the most important lessons in life I learned started rights in public schools. We’re stuck with other people and all the games people play. I’ve always favored we teach more on character, people skills (esp body language or motivations), critical thinking, statistics, personal finance, etc. early on. Whatever we see playing out in a big way, esp skills crucial for personal advancement and democracy, should take place over maximizing the number of facts or rules memorized. Also, one might wonder why a school system would be designed to maximize compliance to authority figure’s seemingly meaningless rules and facts. If anything, it would produce people who were mediocre, but obedient, in authoritarian structures. Looking at the history of education, we find that might not be far from the truth.
  - klodolph 2y ago
    > Also, one might wonder why a school system would be designed to maximize compliance to authority figure’s seemingly meaningless rules and facts. I think the explanation is a little more mundane—it’s just an easier way to teach. Compliance becomes more and more valuable as classroom sizes increase—you can have a more extreme student-teacher ratio if your students are more compliant. Meaningless rules and facts provide benchmarks so teachers can easily prove to parents and administrators that students are meeting those benchmarks. People value accountability more than excellence… something that applies broadly in the corporate world as well. Somehow, despite this, we keep producing a steady stream of people with decent critical thinking skills, creativity, curiosity, and even rebellion. They aren’t served well by school but these people keep coming out of our school system nonetheless. Maybe it can be explained by some combination of instinctual defiance against authority figures and some individualistic cultural values; I’m not sure.
    - nickpsecurity 2y ago
      Re compliance for scaling It could be true. They sold it to us as a way to teach them. If it’s not teaching them, then they would be wasting the money of taxpayers to do something different. If parents wanted what you describe, or just a babysitter / teacher, then they might still support it. We need honesty, though, so parents can make tradeoffs among various systems. Also, the capitalists that originally funding and benefited from the public model also send their own kids to schools with different models. Those models consistently work better to produce future professionals, executives, and leaders. So, the question is: “Do none of the components of those private schools scale in a public model? Or do they have different goals for students of public schools and students of elite schools like their own kids?” Maybe we’re overly paranoid, though. Re good outcomes Well, there’s maybe two things going on. Made in God’s image, we’re imbued with free will, emotional motivations, the ability to learn, to adapt, to dream. Even in the hood, some kids I went to school with pushed themselves to do great things. If public school is decent or good, then our own nature will produce some amount of capable people. The real question is what percentage of people acquire fundamental abilities we want. Also, what percentage is successful? A worrying trend is how most teachers I know are pulling their hair out about how students can’t read, do math, anything. Examples from both people I know in real life and teachers I see online: “Young people in our college classes are currently reading at a sixth grade level. They don’t understand the materials. I have to re-write or explain them so they can follow along.” “I get my college students to do a phonics program. It doesn’t get them to a college level. It does usually increase their ability by a year or two level.” (Many seconded that online comment.) “I hate to say it but they’re just dumb now. If they learn anything, I feel like I accomplished something.” “My goal is to get them to focus on even one lesson for a few minutes and tell me even one word or character in the lesson. If they do that, we’re making progress.” Whatever system (and culture) that is doing this on a large scale is not educating people. Our professors should never have to give people Hooked on Phonics on college to get them past sixth grade level. This is so disasterous that ditching it for something else entirely or trying all kinds of local experiments makes a lot of sense.
- logicchains 2y ago
  > so much of what students actually pick up is how to function in a peer group and society at large It teaches students how to function in an unnatural, dysfunctional, often toxic environment and as adults many have to spend years unlearning the bad habits they picked up. It also takes many years to learn as adults they shouldn't put up with the kind of bad treatment from bosses and peers that they had no way to distance themselves from in school.
  - klodolph 2y ago
    I find it hard to make impartial judgments about school because of my own personal experiences in school. I think your comment may reflect a similar lack of impartiality.
  - huuhee3 2y ago
    I agree. As far as human interaction goes, school taught me that to anyone who is different has no rights, and that to become successful and popular you should aim to be a bully who puts others down, even through use of violence. Similarly, to protect yourself from bullies violence is the only effective method. I'm not sure these lessons are what society should be teaching kids.
  - majormajor 2y ago
    How do you know that's "unnatural" and not an indicator that it's a very hard problem to organize people to behave in non-toxic, non-exploitive ways? Many adults, for instance, do end up receiving bad treatment throughout their lives. Not everyone is able to find jobs without that, for instance. Is that simply their fault for not trying hard enough, or learning a bad lesson that they should put up with it, or is it simply easier said than done?
- jancsika 2y ago
  > Not sure why it takes 12-to-16 years Someone with domain expertise can expand on my ELI5 version below: The parts of the brain that handle socially appropriate behavior aren't fully baked until around the early twenties.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - robocat 2y ago
    Your ELI5 kinda ignores that the baking during teen years matters. Anecdotally socially inappropriate teen behaviour seems to be part of a subconscious learning process. But maybe pushing boundaries matters at all ages?
- graemep 2y ago
  > so much of what students actually pick up is how to function in a peer group and society at large, That happens in any social setting, and I do not think school is even a good one. Many schools in the UK limit socialisation and tell students "you are here to learn, not socialise". People learned to social skills at least as well before going to school become normal, in my experience home educated kids are better socialised, etc.
  - __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
    Where else are you going to learn that the system is your enemy and the people around you are your friends? I feel like that was a valuable thing to have learned and as a child I didn't really have anywhere else to learn it.
    - ghssds 2y ago
      I actually learned that people around me are very much my enemies and the system don't care. Your school must have been tremendously good quality because I've felt isolated from school's day 1 and the feeling never went away forty years later.
      - __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
        > Your school must have been tremendously good quality No, it was terrible, that's why I decided it was my enemy. And golly I think we knocked it down a peg or two by the time I was done there. But a few brilliant teachers managed to convince me not to hate the players, just the game.
      - UltraSane 2y ago
        Ironically I had the exact same experience in school.
    - ben_w 2y ago
      That wasn't my experience at school. I learned that people don't think the way I do, that my peers can include sadists, that adults can make mistakes or be arses and you can be powerless to change their minds. Which was valuable, but it wasn't telling me anything about "the system" being flawed (unless you count the fact it was a Catholic school and that I stopped being Christian while in that school as a result of reading the Bible), which I had to figure out gradually in adulthood.