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From what I've noticed, despite the label "outdated", I can't reliably notice any difference in utility between these categories. neo/vim users (which I certain
by uludag 2y ago
From what I've noticed, despite the label "outdated", I can't reliably notice any difference in utility between these categories. neo/vim users (which I certainly don't use) are at least as effective using these tools as so-called "modern" text editors. I don't think anyone can categorically say that modern text editor users (e.g. vscode) are more productive/better/extract more utility/etc. than their terminal based counterpart like you can say for other truly outdated technologies. And these tools make up a huge portion of the (coding) market. I don't think it should matter that they don't target the masses.
I think there are a lot bigger problems to solve in the xNix environment than getting people to stop pressing escape to enter normal mode.
(the argument for Emacs makes less sense since it has customizations available to be as "modern" as you want. You may criticize it's byzantine configuration process, but that's a different topic. It's also funny how Apple, the poster child for elegance in UIs has Emacs keybindings by default everywhere in macOS, even the concepts of "yanking" and "killing". In hindsight though, it makes perfect sense)
- lproven 2y agoI think you misunderstand what I am saying. I am absolutely not saying that there is any difference in utility whatsoever. I have watched skilled exponents of Vim and Emacs perform wizardry, and I've also seen an adept of Jedit do things with plain English text that I don't know how to do in any editor. This is absolutely not about utility or capabilities. It's about UI. I am aware of efforts to bring a standard modern (as in, 1990s) UI to both editors. For Emacs there is ErgoEmacs -- https://ergoemacs.github.io/ https://ergoemacs.github.io/ -- which is amazing and makes it slightly usable even for me, steeped in CUA for over a third of a century. For Vim I know of Cream -- https://cream.sourceforge.net/ https://cream.sourceforge.net/ -- but it seems unmaintained for a long time and when I tried it I couldn't get it working. What I am saying is two other, quite different things: 1. Using the Linux shell is needlessly hard and complicated, because of its adamant refusal to adopt the modernised UIs of other text-mode OSes from 30+ years ago. These could be bringing the shell into harmony with the GUI, making the experience better, and it would be trivially easy to set things up so that experienced users with their own ways of doing things were not inconvenienced at all. 2. As a result of this refusal, or even of this blank ignorance and lack of curiosity in how other OSes and other platforms modernised text-mode apps, the dominant tools in Linux and other FOSS xNixes have no standadisation. Even when there are TUIs driven by ncurses or whatever, they're all different and all inconsistent. There's no need for it. It's wasting everyone's time. In other words, the tools don't need to be different from one another and they don't need to look and work so differently from in GUI desktops.
- uludag 2y agook, I think I understand what you meant better. I guess my mental model of UI has some sort of utility baked in but I see how this isn't necessarily the case. I would agree with this take actually. It is deffinitely is a jarring experience with with terminal stuff as every TUI is a world unto itself.
- renox 2y agoMmm, given that I have an AZERTY keyboard, I take a look at ErgoEmacs's configuration and .. no way I'm going into this! I'll stay with VSCode..
- lproven 2y ago> I have an AZERTY keyboard Makes no difference. I lived for a decade in Czechia, where they use QWERTZ. CUA works absolutely the same whatever your localisation.