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Exodus was as far from Christ as we are. The Old Testament can't be used to counter Jesus - Jesus is the counter to the Old Testament. He is the reason it's "O

Exodus was as far from Christ as we are. The Old Testament can't be used to counter Jesus - Jesus is the counter to the Old Testament. He is the reason it's "Old" - humility, loving all without conditions, forgivenes, turning the other cheek - The Greatest Commandment, none of them are ignored or "misinterpreted" in any justified way, even if that way is quoting scripture from Exodus.

marky1991 2y ago
That's a very unusual context for me, in my tradition (reformed Presbyterian) we definitely don't view things that we way in general, the God of the old testament is the God of the new and Jesus didn't wholesale make the old testament invalid, only the parts of the law that he had already satisfied. (Eg no need for more animal sacrifices, we've already sacrificed enough via Jesus) (Notably, the moral law and parts of the ceremonial law are still valid) It is interesting to think about why it's ok to differ from the old temple. Granted of course some of it is cultural differences, we're not the same people and it's 1000s of years later, and perhaps it was different because we're not the theocratic state of ancient Israel. But something for me to think about why this component is no longer needed (my church is very classic boring protestant architecture)
- ARandomerDude 2y ago
  Agreed except for this comment. > parts of the ceremonial law are still valid Westminster Confession 19.3: “All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the new testament.” The reason the ceremonial law is abrogated is because it pointed forward to Christ who was to come. But since Christ has come, retaining the ceremonial law is tantamount to denying Christ (see full text of WCF 19.3 and book of Hebrews). If you were thinking of the link between baptism and circumcision, remember that God gave the covenant promise and sign to Abraham 430 years before Moses (Gen 17, Gal 3:17), so circumcision predates the law.
  - marky1991 2y ago
    Interesting, the confession considers 'remember the sabbath' to be 'moral law', not ceremonial, also 19.3 . Thanks for the reminder!
    - ARandomerDude 2y ago
      Exactly right. One way to know the Sabbath is moral rather than ceremonial is the Sabbath was established in Genesis 2:1-3. That means the Sabbath pre-dates the Law, and even pre-dates sin. So Adam and Eve would have kept the Sabbath before the Fall, and so would have all their posterity if they had never fallen. As confirmation of that idea, Exodus 20:11 states that the reason God gives the fourth commandment is because the Sabbath is a creation ordinance, and by implication is therefore moral. I hope that helps! God bless.
      - NemoNobody 2y ago
        Adam and Eve had no conception of the Sabbath - they never worked or labored for anything prior to leaving the garden. God walked and talked with them daily, whenever apparently - what need for their to be to recognize that which is accessible and available all the days. What purpose would a God have at all for the life inside his creations to set aside 1/7 of their time "for him" anyways? Lots of silly, silly stuff people say God thinks
        ARandomerDude 2y ago
        Genesis 2:15 ESV The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it.
        batch12 2y ago
        It's important to remember that the sabbath was a gift to man from God per Jesus Mark 2:27 NIV [27] Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
  - NemoNobody 2y ago
- NemoNobody 2y ago
  You are a believer I take it - did he not split the veil? Why do you think you can pick and chose what he invalidates and what he doesn't? He left one - ONE rule with two parts, it's very simple, even children have the ability to understand. Every Christian I speak always says something like this - "a common misconception" " not my understanding" "according to the church fathers" - so many quite not Jesus at to counter me quoting Jesus, the man who is the basis of all your beliefs. He did not say we could make exceptions, in fact, to use the OT as appropriate - to support Jesus and his teachings, the rule/divine laws that we were given, of which there was only 10 was VERY CLEAR about our taking liberties with interpretation. Thou Shall Not Judge. No exceptions for this one either - this morally, ethically, legally, socially, none. Next time you read the Bible - Jesus was frustrated as fuck with the "Church" of his time - he very strongly disliked them as much as a man that claims to be the Son of God can. He said we are the church - US, the believers, not a building, not a congregation, not a fellowship - US. He said that in an attempt to prevent the church from becoming as it is now - nothing remotely like him or his teachings, beliefs or values.
  - dmonitor 2y ago
    The shape of the modern church frustrates me to no end. I consider myself a believer, but every time I look at a Christian organization I find their foundational document to be "The Book of Common Prayer" or some other 16th century nonsense. Do we really need to have each member give 10% of their income so we can pay one guy upwards of six figures to give a 30-minute motivational speech once a week? That was probably useful when he was the only person that knew how to read, but today I find that the kind of person who takes that job is completely detached from the lives of ordinary people who go to work for a living. The attitude many believers treat non-believers with is also appalling. The baseline I've seen is "you should be friends with non-believers because you can convert them". The worst I've seen is borderline xenophobia and encouraging to only consume media from approved christian-aligned sources. My younger sister attended a christian high school, and the student that spoke at her graduation gave a speech I can only describe as "we must retake the culture from our enemies, deus vult". I was appalled, but many of the adults in attendance ate it up. I don't remember Jesus warning people about enemies. I do remember him warning people about being curt towards their neighbors. Do modern christians not know what a Samaritan means? The alignment of politics with evangelicalism has been awful, and I'm not looking forward to where it will lead.

marky1991 2y ago

That's a very unusual context for me, in my tradition (reformed Presbyterian) we definitely don't view things that we way in general, the God of the old testament is the God of the new and Jesus didn't wholesale make the old testament invalid, only the parts of the law that he had already satisfied. (Eg no need for more animal sacrifices, we've already sacrificed enough via Jesus) (Notably, the moral law and parts of the ceremonial law are still valid) It is interesting to think about why it's ok to differ from the old temple. Granted of course some of it is cultural differences, we're not the same people and it's 1000s of years later, and perhaps it was different because we're not the theocratic state of ancient Israel. But something for me to think about why this component is no longer needed (my church is very classic boring protestant architecture)

ARandomerDude 2y ago
Agreed except for this comment. > parts of the ceremonial law are still valid Westminster Confession 19.3: “All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the new testament.” The reason the ceremonial law is abrogated is because it pointed forward to Christ who was to come. But since Christ has come, retaining the ceremonial law is tantamount to denying Christ (see full text of WCF 19.3 and book of Hebrews). If you were thinking of the link between baptism and circumcision, remember that God gave the covenant promise and sign to Abraham 430 years before Moses (Gen 17, Gal 3:17), so circumcision predates the law.
- marky1991 2y ago
  Interesting, the confession considers 'remember the sabbath' to be 'moral law', not ceremonial, also 19.3 . Thanks for the reminder!
  - ARandomerDude 2y ago
    Exactly right. One way to know the Sabbath is moral rather than ceremonial is the Sabbath was established in Genesis 2:1-3. That means the Sabbath pre-dates the Law, and even pre-dates sin. So Adam and Eve would have kept the Sabbath before the Fall, and so would have all their posterity if they had never fallen. As confirmation of that idea, Exodus 20:11 states that the reason God gives the fourth commandment is because the Sabbath is a creation ordinance, and by implication is therefore moral. I hope that helps! God bless.
    - NemoNobody 2y ago
      Adam and Eve had no conception of the Sabbath - they never worked or labored for anything prior to leaving the garden. God walked and talked with them daily, whenever apparently - what need for their to be to recognize that which is accessible and available all the days. What purpose would a God have at all for the life inside his creations to set aside 1/7 of their time "for him" anyways? Lots of silly, silly stuff people say God thinks
      - ARandomerDude 2y ago
        Genesis 2:15 ESV The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it.
      - batch12 2y ago
        It's important to remember that the sabbath was a gift to man from God per Jesus Mark 2:27 NIV [27] Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
- NemoNobody 2y ago
NemoNobody 2y ago
You are a believer I take it - did he not split the veil? Why do you think you can pick and chose what he invalidates and what he doesn't? He left one - ONE rule with two parts, it's very simple, even children have the ability to understand. Every Christian I speak always says something like this - "a common misconception" " not my understanding" "according to the church fathers" - so many quite not Jesus at to counter me quoting Jesus, the man who is the basis of all your beliefs. He did not say we could make exceptions, in fact, to use the OT as appropriate - to support Jesus and his teachings, the rule/divine laws that we were given, of which there was only 10 was VERY CLEAR about our taking liberties with interpretation. Thou Shall Not Judge. No exceptions for this one either - this morally, ethically, legally, socially, none. Next time you read the Bible - Jesus was frustrated as fuck with the "Church" of his time - he very strongly disliked them as much as a man that claims to be the Son of God can. He said we are the church - US, the believers, not a building, not a congregation, not a fellowship - US. He said that in an attempt to prevent the church from becoming as it is now - nothing remotely like him or his teachings, beliefs or values.
- dmonitor 2y ago
  The shape of the modern church frustrates me to no end. I consider myself a believer, but every time I look at a Christian organization I find their foundational document to be "The Book of Common Prayer" or some other 16th century nonsense. Do we really need to have each member give 10% of their income so we can pay one guy upwards of six figures to give a 30-minute motivational speech once a week? That was probably useful when he was the only person that knew how to read, but today I find that the kind of person who takes that job is completely detached from the lives of ordinary people who go to work for a living. The attitude many believers treat non-believers with is also appalling. The baseline I've seen is "you should be friends with non-believers because you can convert them". The worst I've seen is borderline xenophobia and encouraging to only consume media from approved christian-aligned sources. My younger sister attended a christian high school, and the student that spoke at her graduation gave a speech I can only describe as "we must retake the culture from our enemies, deus vult". I was appalled, but many of the adults in attendance ate it up. I don't remember Jesus warning people about enemies. I do remember him warning people about being curt towards their neighbors. Do modern christians not know what a Samaritan means? The alignment of politics with evangelicalism has been awful, and I'm not looking forward to where it will lead.