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To me, it's slowly become obvious that Matrix was invented because certain people wanted to ride the trendy wave of VC money propping up Slack and friends back

by ezst 2y ago

To me, it's slowly become obvious that Matrix was invented because certain people wanted to ride the trendy wave of VC money propping up Slack and friends back in those days. Matrix has been all about superlative marketing and over-promises with little substance and theoretical underpinnings to back it up. The fact that they were spreading FUD and disinformation against XMPP and the alternatives in their early days should have been a red herring. The fact that they haven't stabilized their protocol and made it scalable to mid-level deployments after more than a decade should be a reason for pause. The fact that after so long, due to the sheer complexity of it, only one entity has emerged as willing to sink the costs of Matrix should be a reason for worries. I think that we are due for an XMPP resurgence. Not that it is perfect by any stretch of mind, but it is no-BS, mature, lightweight on resources and bandwidth and verifiably fit for purpose, whether you want to host small-scale for your family & friends, or for the whole world with the ambition to be the next GTalk, facebook messenger, or whatsapp (all of them XMPP services at one point or another of their histories)

zaik 2y ago
> red herring I think you meant to say red flag, not red herring: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring
- ezst 2y ago
  Oh, TIL! Thanks :-)
tcfhgj 2y ago
> Matrix has been all about superlative marketing and over-promises with little substance and theoretical underpinnings to back it up. I don't think so. The underpinnings were there, may it be the concepts for E2EE, P2P, Verification, Bridging, decentralized rooms and conferencing, synchronized history, etc. Not everything is production ready let alone finished with perfect UX, but it doesn't lack theoretical underpinnings. > The fact that they were spreading FUD and disinformation against XMPP In the past, I have experienced it more often vice versa than this way. > The fact that they haven't stabilized their protocol and made it scalable to mid-level deployments after more than a decade should be a reason for pause. There are already pretty large deployments (1+ million users), so I think it's scalable to mid-level deployments. > only one entity has emerged as willing to sink the costs of Matrix should be a reason for worries. idk what you mean > all of them XMPP services at one point or another of their histories histories is an important keyword
- ezst 2y ago
  > I don't think so. The underpinnings were there, may it be the concepts for E2EE, P2P, Verification, Bridging, decentralized rooms and conferencing, synchronized history, etc. Not everything is production ready let alone finished with perfect UX, but it doesn't lack theoretical underpinnings. Let me cut it short: either you think that there's nothing to be said about the current state resolution machinery, and that's an admission that Matrix will never reach its stated goal to become a mainstream decentralized network (because federation at scale just doesn't work with the current status-quo), or you agree with me that something needs to be done (but, like me, could turn impatient that nothing materializes after a decade). >> The fact that they were spreading FUD and disinformation against XMPP > In the past, I have experienced it more often vice versa than this way. I am not challenging your experience, I am talking about what was effectively written about XMPP on the Matrix website. If this was reciprocal as you say, I'd like to be shown where and in which terms XMPP has engaged in disinformation campaigns against Matrix. At least, with the xmpp.org website's history being on github, it should be very easy: https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Axsf%2Fxmpp.org%20matrix&type=code https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Axsf%2Fxmpp.org%20matrix&t... >> all of them XMPP services at one point or another of their histories > histories is an important keyword If by that you mean that WhatsApp, the single largest chat network to have ever existed, is history, I've got news for you. While we may regret that federation never was a thing with this network, talking about underpinnings, they are still very much versed in XMPP. And that's not an exception. All Android devices depend on XMPP for push notifications, so do every Nintendo switch, and millions of access points, networking and IoT devices. XMPP is all but dead.
Arathorn 2y ago
I’ll take the superlative marketing :D If folks are interested seeing the companies currently sinking $ into Matrix by routing $ to the Matrix Foundation, you can see them at https://matrix.org/support https://matrix.org/support. Thankfully it’s not just Element these days, but companies like Thales and Huawei too. That said, there’s still a $ gap in funding. Meanwhile Matrix 2.0 is a genuine pleasure to use, imo. You can see the substance and explore the theoretical underpinnings at https://matrix.org/blog/2023/09/matrix-2-0/ https://matrix.org/blog/2023/09/matrix-2-0/ and https://element.io/blog/experimenting-with-matrix-2-0-using-element-docker-demo https://element.io/blog/experimenting-with-matrix-2-0-using-... I do regret saying that XMPP had fallen behind, 10 years ago, when we launched Matrix, though - not least because 10 years later folks are still bringing it up ;)
- ezst 2y ago
  > Meanwhile Matrix 2.0 is a genuine pleasure to use "trust us it's good this time" → (still the very same at its core) → "you are right, we are sorry, but bear with us, <buzzword> is just about to be ready!" → (buzzword is abandoned/releases but doesn't improve things in a meaningful way) → "trust is it's good this time" → … Matrix 2.0 on the server is all about "sliding sync", which, once you read through the buzzword, is about running the client on the server so it sucks less at fetching history. Even that works super randomly, if it works at all, even on EMS-hosted instances. The rest is the same. On the client-side, Element X is not daily-drivable because of the bugs and missing essential features. Nothing has improved in a year on that front, which is reminiscent of dendrite: dropping it for the sake of salvaging the original hack would surprise nobody at this point. > I do regret saying that XMPP had fallen behind, 10 years ago By no means am I saying that XMPP was great 10 years ago (what was back then, really?), but that's a very poor rationale for torpedoing another project by spreading lies about it on your FAQ, especially when that project was working on the problems and eventually came to address them, across a whole ecosystem of clients and server, while Matrix to this day is still poking at the beast wondering how to tame its single-vendor/single-client/single-server complexity.
  - Arathorn 2y ago
    I guess the question is whether it’s better to spread objectively and demonstrably false info today (as you are with the completely bogus Matrix 2.0 critique), versus me putting subjective info into a FAQ 10 years ago ;) It might be worth considering that whining about Matrix is misdirected anger - it may be better off pointed at the proprietary centralised surveillance capitalism alternatives rather than us…

by ezst 2y ago

zaik 2y ago

> red herring I think you meant to say red flag, not red herring: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring

ezst 2y ago
Oh, TIL! Thanks :-)

tcfhgj 2y ago

> Matrix has been all about superlative marketing and over-promises with little substance and theoretical underpinnings to back it up. I don't think so. The underpinnings were there, may it be the concepts for E2EE, P2P, Verification, Bridging, decentralized rooms and conferencing, synchronized history, etc. Not everything is production ready let alone finished with perfect UX, but it doesn't lack theoretical underpinnings. > The fact that they were spreading FUD and disinformation against XMPP In the past, I have experienced it more often vice versa than this way. > The fact that they haven't stabilized their protocol and made it scalable to mid-level deployments after more than a decade should be a reason for pause. There are already pretty large deployments (1+ million users), so I think it's scalable to mid-level deployments. > only one entity has emerged as willing to sink the costs of Matrix should be a reason for worries. idk what you mean > all of them XMPP services at one point or another of their histories histories is an important keyword

ezst 2y ago
> I don't think so. The underpinnings were there, may it be the concepts for E2EE, P2P, Verification, Bridging, decentralized rooms and conferencing, synchronized history, etc. Not everything is production ready let alone finished with perfect UX, but it doesn't lack theoretical underpinnings. Let me cut it short: either you think that there's nothing to be said about the current state resolution machinery, and that's an admission that Matrix will never reach its stated goal to become a mainstream decentralized network (because federation at scale just doesn't work with the current status-quo), or you agree with me that something needs to be done (but, like me, could turn impatient that nothing materializes after a decade). >> The fact that they were spreading FUD and disinformation against XMPP > In the past, I have experienced it more often vice versa than this way. I am not challenging your experience, I am talking about what was effectively written about XMPP on the Matrix website. If this was reciprocal as you say, I'd like to be shown where and in which terms XMPP has engaged in disinformation campaigns against Matrix. At least, with the xmpp.org website's history being on github, it should be very easy: https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Axsf%2Fxmpp.org%20matrix&type=code https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Axsf%2Fxmpp.org%20matrix&t... >> all of them XMPP services at one point or another of their histories > histories is an important keyword If by that you mean that WhatsApp, the single largest chat network to have ever existed, is history, I've got news for you. While we may regret that federation never was a thing with this network, talking about underpinnings, they are still very much versed in XMPP. And that's not an exception. All Android devices depend on XMPP for push notifications, so do every Nintendo switch, and millions of access points, networking and IoT devices. XMPP is all but dead.

Arathorn 2y ago

I’ll take the superlative marketing :D If folks are interested seeing the companies currently sinking $ into Matrix by routing $ to the Matrix Foundation, you can see them at https://matrix.org/support https://matrix.org/support. Thankfully it’s not just Element these days, but companies like Thales and Huawei too. That said, there’s still a $ gap in funding. Meanwhile Matrix 2.0 is a genuine pleasure to use, imo. You can see the substance and explore the theoretical underpinnings at https://matrix.org/blog/2023/09/matrix-2-0/ https://matrix.org/blog/2023/09/matrix-2-0/ and https://element.io/blog/experimenting-with-matrix-2-0-using-element-docker-demo https://element.io/blog/experimenting-with-matrix-2-0-using-... I do regret saying that XMPP had fallen behind, 10 years ago, when we launched Matrix, though - not least because 10 years later folks are still bringing it up ;)

ezst 2y ago
> Meanwhile Matrix 2.0 is a genuine pleasure to use "trust us it's good this time" → (still the very same at its core) → "you are right, we are sorry, but bear with us, <buzzword> is just about to be ready!" → (buzzword is abandoned/releases but doesn't improve things in a meaningful way) → "trust is it's good this time" → … Matrix 2.0 on the server is all about "sliding sync", which, once you read through the buzzword, is about running the client on the server so it sucks less at fetching history. Even that works super randomly, if it works at all, even on EMS-hosted instances. The rest is the same. On the client-side, Element X is not daily-drivable because of the bugs and missing essential features. Nothing has improved in a year on that front, which is reminiscent of dendrite: dropping it for the sake of salvaging the original hack would surprise nobody at this point. > I do regret saying that XMPP had fallen behind, 10 years ago By no means am I saying that XMPP was great 10 years ago (what was back then, really?), but that's a very poor rationale for torpedoing another project by spreading lies about it on your FAQ, especially when that project was working on the problems and eventually came to address them, across a whole ecosystem of clients and server, while Matrix to this day is still poking at the beast wondering how to tame its single-vendor/single-client/single-server complexity.
- Arathorn 2y ago
  I guess the question is whether it’s better to spread objectively and demonstrably false info today (as you are with the completely bogus Matrix 2.0 critique), versus me putting subjective info into a FAQ 10 years ago ;) It might be worth considering that whining about Matrix is misdirected anger - it may be better off pointed at the proprietary centralised surveillance capitalism alternatives rather than us…