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> I don't think that's in line with Jesus' teachings of humility and helping the poor etc, especially not given how much money goes and went around in the churc

> I don't think that's in line with Jesus' teachings of humility and helping the poor etc, especially not given how much money goes and went around in the church. Hmm, but in the Exodus, the ark of the covenant was glided in gold with cherubs on the four corners. Same with the Jewish Temple, it was probably decked out in marble. Unlike Protestants, Catholicism have arts, choral music and statues and architecture not because they are "worshipping it" but because these things are supposed to direct the mind upwards towards God. I think the Catholic Mass is the ancient form of worship by the early Church. There's multiple references to the Real Presence in the Eucharist in New Testament (ie. the road to Eramus and the breaking of bread, and in John 6:53*) and the Sanctus is still in the Eucharistic Prayer, and besides, its an obvious break with the Jews who did burnt offerings in the Temple. John 6:53–58, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

nemomarx 2y ago
Well yeah, opulent temples are in line with Jewish traditions but the other poster is suggesting that's not in line with the teaching of the new testament specifically?
- kcplate 2y ago
  Not necessarily but like much interpretations differ. An old retired pastor friend once described the story of Mary anointing Christ with the expensive oil and being chastised by Judas as a “waste” with Jesus correcting Judas (John 12). He expressed that story as possibly symbolic of how we should regard Christ as the glorious king of kings and despite His servant humility, He is still deserving of the finest we have including opulence in His houses of worship. We had this conversation while I was struggling as a member of the church over a remodel of our sanctuary and what I felt were excessive expenses that were more for beauty than function. Essentially “a waste”. I asked his opinion Always kind of thought provoking when an octogenarian pastor makes you realize that you identified with Judas’s attitude.
  - NemoNobody 2y ago
    Does this story feel legit to you? Judas - the Betrayer who trades his divine friend with like tons of followers and influence for silver pieces, 30 of them I think, Judas speaks to materialism as unnecessary and Jesus corrects him as "well for me and my Dad, expensive is appropriate" - the guy who gets to town and is all like, "where the tax collectors and prostitutes be at?" They were the most controversial figures in that society... Today, were Jesus to show up today, already having been born to some woman immaculately a fews back, he wouldn't step foot into a Church with his name on it - you'd be far more likely to find him hanging out with Trans people, homeless - he tended to have a thing for broken people, something about improving them and whatnot.
    - kcplate 2y ago
      > Does this story feel legit to you? No more or less than any story from that time period. What is in the Bible is literal, historical, metaphorical, philosophical…etc. So could it be true? Sure. Could it be an illustrative fiction? Sure. Could it be false or mistranslated? Sure. Could the message require a contemporary contextual understanding that we don’t have in 2024? Sure. > Today, were Jesus to show up today, already having been born to some woman immaculately a fews back, he wouldn't step foot into a Church with his name on it It’s always funny to me when someone (anyone…from any side or spectrum of the theological debate) seems so confident that they know how “Jesus today” would behave, when apparently from the accounts written near to when he was present on the earth even his closest disciples and friends who were with him at the time were often surprised by his behavior. To make the claim that He would shun His houses today doesn’t seem to be rooted in the historical understanding about Him that we do we have. He apparently wasn’t too happy with what was happening in the Temple at that time, but still set foot in it, if only to make a point. > you'd be far more likely to find him hanging out with Trans people, homeless - he tended to have a thing for broken people, something about improving them and whatnot Back then He sought out the rich, the poor, the right, the wrong, the clean and unclean, the nobility, the nobodies, the religious, the Jews, the gentiles—basically all folks of all types that were milling about in Judea in that time period. Would that somehow be different in 2024 and He would just gravitate to marginalized people? Doesn’t seem to be in character with what He did then.
NemoNobody 2y ago
Exodus was as far from Christ as we are. The Old Testament can't be used to counter Jesus - Jesus is the counter to the Old Testament. He is the reason it's "Old" - humility, loving all without conditions, forgivenes, turning the other cheek - The Greatest Commandment, none of them are ignored or "misinterpreted" in any justified way, even if that way is quoting scripture from Exodus.
- marky1991 2y ago
  That's a very unusual context for me, in my tradition (reformed Presbyterian) we definitely don't view things that we way in general, the God of the old testament is the God of the new and Jesus didn't wholesale make the old testament invalid, only the parts of the law that he had already satisfied. (Eg no need for more animal sacrifices, we've already sacrificed enough via Jesus) (Notably, the moral law and parts of the ceremonial law are still valid) It is interesting to think about why it's ok to differ from the old temple. Granted of course some of it is cultural differences, we're not the same people and it's 1000s of years later, and perhaps it was different because we're not the theocratic state of ancient Israel. But something for me to think about why this component is no longer needed (my church is very classic boring protestant architecture)
  - ARandomerDude 2y ago
    Agreed except for this comment. > parts of the ceremonial law are still valid Westminster Confession 19.3: “All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the new testament.” The reason the ceremonial law is abrogated is because it pointed forward to Christ who was to come. But since Christ has come, retaining the ceremonial law is tantamount to denying Christ (see full text of WCF 19.3 and book of Hebrews). If you were thinking of the link between baptism and circumcision, remember that God gave the covenant promise and sign to Abraham 430 years before Moses (Gen 17, Gal 3:17), so circumcision predates the law.
    - marky1991 2y ago
      Interesting, the confession considers 'remember the sabbath' to be 'moral law', not ceremonial, also 19.3 . Thanks for the reminder!
jajko 2y ago
As somebody outside of religions (thank you both parents, probably the greatest gift one can give to one's kids - freedom of faith and self determination, something almost impossible as adult if indoctrinated young), these kind of discussions are funny to me. Why? They are present in every corner of the world, every religion. And all you need is to take few steps back and stop taking everything literally, trying to find some universal life guidance in bronze age texts. Not that its not there completely, some things are universal, but so are half the self-help books for example or literally any other serious text. Frank Herbert's Dune series is way more appealing and worthy to me for example and truths in it way more universal, yet I am not basing my whole life and morals on it, nor do I feel the need to push it on rest of the world. Those were stories, no moral value greater than old greek (or persian, hindu etc.) tales which always had some strong message beyond story on the surface. Stories made up by men, hundreds of years after christ, which were retold probably 20x before somebody wrote them down (and then 20x translated between various slangs, languages and targeted meanings). Current bible has little to do with original story, its simply not technically possible for complex stories to be preserved 100% for hundreds of years by just retelling them. You realize that say sunni vs shia muslims are, when reduced to few words, a conflict between which member of the family was the truest believer and whose words are more important, while having 0 reference to actually decide so? Yet conflicts between those are numerous and victims of those in hundreds of millions. Every time I see people desperately looking for specific truths, there is some deeper underlying problem and inability/unwillingness to decide something rather trivial for oneself. Like which sort of music should be happening where - what the heck does this have to do with actual faith in your god(s)? Do you also consult religious text when picking up Sunday sweater color? Deities are not that petty, not even in those bronze age tales, its just showing human flaws and fears.
- mistrial9 2y ago
  that's all brave and probably well intentioned, but there is another side to it. The Bible was specifically "a single agreed upon text" so that groups of people in real life could stop fighting about theology points, big and small. It still exists today. "The Bible is the Truth" end of statement. It is not because you personally cannot find new meaning in non-Bible things.. it is specifically to get groups of people "on the same page" .. that phrase is used today. The written nature of it also tends toward stability. Perhaps in an unsatisfying way to an adolescent, the answer is there already, and you personally find your place in the order that is established by your ancestors and lead you life. Mostly the whole exercise is opposite of adolescent exploration. IMHO this is neither bad nor good. It is boring and meant to be boring, to prevent deadly conflict, wasted efforts, petty differences etc. Based on this boring interpretation, Christians went on to build massive, mighty buildings, large civilized empires and vast written knowledge available to literate citizens. Those things did not have to happen at all. The triumph is that they did happen. In modern times we mostly dont even regard these things, since they are "obvious." Please note that I am not saying this is the only one True Path at all, just describing things.

nemomarx 2y ago

Well yeah, opulent temples are in line with Jewish traditions but the other poster is suggesting that's not in line with the teaching of the new testament specifically?

kcplate 2y ago
Not necessarily but like much interpretations differ. An old retired pastor friend once described the story of Mary anointing Christ with the expensive oil and being chastised by Judas as a “waste” with Jesus correcting Judas (John 12). He expressed that story as possibly symbolic of how we should regard Christ as the glorious king of kings and despite His servant humility, He is still deserving of the finest we have including opulence in His houses of worship. We had this conversation while I was struggling as a member of the church over a remodel of our sanctuary and what I felt were excessive expenses that were more for beauty than function. Essentially “a waste”. I asked his opinion Always kind of thought provoking when an octogenarian pastor makes you realize that you identified with Judas’s attitude.
- NemoNobody 2y ago
  Does this story feel legit to you? Judas - the Betrayer who trades his divine friend with like tons of followers and influence for silver pieces, 30 of them I think, Judas speaks to materialism as unnecessary and Jesus corrects him as "well for me and my Dad, expensive is appropriate" - the guy who gets to town and is all like, "where the tax collectors and prostitutes be at?" They were the most controversial figures in that society... Today, were Jesus to show up today, already having been born to some woman immaculately a fews back, he wouldn't step foot into a Church with his name on it - you'd be far more likely to find him hanging out with Trans people, homeless - he tended to have a thing for broken people, something about improving them and whatnot.
  - kcplate 2y ago
    > Does this story feel legit to you? No more or less than any story from that time period. What is in the Bible is literal, historical, metaphorical, philosophical…etc. So could it be true? Sure. Could it be an illustrative fiction? Sure. Could it be false or mistranslated? Sure. Could the message require a contemporary contextual understanding that we don’t have in 2024? Sure. > Today, were Jesus to show up today, already having been born to some woman immaculately a fews back, he wouldn't step foot into a Church with his name on it It’s always funny to me when someone (anyone…from any side or spectrum of the theological debate) seems so confident that they know how “Jesus today” would behave, when apparently from the accounts written near to when he was present on the earth even his closest disciples and friends who were with him at the time were often surprised by his behavior. To make the claim that He would shun His houses today doesn’t seem to be rooted in the historical understanding about Him that we do we have. He apparently wasn’t too happy with what was happening in the Temple at that time, but still set foot in it, if only to make a point. > you'd be far more likely to find him hanging out with Trans people, homeless - he tended to have a thing for broken people, something about improving them and whatnot Back then He sought out the rich, the poor, the right, the wrong, the clean and unclean, the nobility, the nobodies, the religious, the Jews, the gentiles—basically all folks of all types that were milling about in Judea in that time period. Would that somehow be different in 2024 and He would just gravitate to marginalized people? Doesn’t seem to be in character with what He did then.

NemoNobody 2y ago

Exodus was as far from Christ as we are. The Old Testament can't be used to counter Jesus - Jesus is the counter to the Old Testament. He is the reason it's "Old" - humility, loving all without conditions, forgivenes, turning the other cheek - The Greatest Commandment, none of them are ignored or "misinterpreted" in any justified way, even if that way is quoting scripture from Exodus.

marky1991 2y ago
That's a very unusual context for me, in my tradition (reformed Presbyterian) we definitely don't view things that we way in general, the God of the old testament is the God of the new and Jesus didn't wholesale make the old testament invalid, only the parts of the law that he had already satisfied. (Eg no need for more animal sacrifices, we've already sacrificed enough via Jesus) (Notably, the moral law and parts of the ceremonial law are still valid) It is interesting to think about why it's ok to differ from the old temple. Granted of course some of it is cultural differences, we're not the same people and it's 1000s of years later, and perhaps it was different because we're not the theocratic state of ancient Israel. But something for me to think about why this component is no longer needed (my church is very classic boring protestant architecture)
- ARandomerDude 2y ago
  Agreed except for this comment. > parts of the ceremonial law are still valid Westminster Confession 19.3: “All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the new testament.” The reason the ceremonial law is abrogated is because it pointed forward to Christ who was to come. But since Christ has come, retaining the ceremonial law is tantamount to denying Christ (see full text of WCF 19.3 and book of Hebrews). If you were thinking of the link between baptism and circumcision, remember that God gave the covenant promise and sign to Abraham 430 years before Moses (Gen 17, Gal 3:17), so circumcision predates the law.
  - marky1991 2y ago
    Interesting, the confession considers 'remember the sabbath' to be 'moral law', not ceremonial, also 19.3 . Thanks for the reminder!

jajko 2y ago

As somebody outside of religions (thank you both parents, probably the greatest gift one can give to one's kids - freedom of faith and self determination, something almost impossible as adult if indoctrinated young), these kind of discussions are funny to me. Why? They are present in every corner of the world, every religion. And all you need is to take few steps back and stop taking everything literally, trying to find some universal life guidance in bronze age texts. Not that its not there completely, some things are universal, but so are half the self-help books for example or literally any other serious text. Frank Herbert's Dune series is way more appealing and worthy to me for example and truths in it way more universal, yet I am not basing my whole life and morals on it, nor do I feel the need to push it on rest of the world. Those were stories, no moral value greater than old greek (or persian, hindu etc.) tales which always had some strong message beyond story on the surface. Stories made up by men, hundreds of years after christ, which were retold probably 20x before somebody wrote them down (and then 20x translated between various slangs, languages and targeted meanings). Current bible has little to do with original story, its simply not technically possible for complex stories to be preserved 100% for hundreds of years by just retelling them. You realize that say sunni vs shia muslims are, when reduced to few words, a conflict between which member of the family was the truest believer and whose words are more important, while having 0 reference to actually decide so? Yet conflicts between those are numerous and victims of those in hundreds of millions. Every time I see people desperately looking for specific truths, there is some deeper underlying problem and inability/unwillingness to decide something rather trivial for oneself. Like which sort of music should be happening where - what the heck does this have to do with actual faith in your god(s)? Do you also consult religious text when picking up Sunday sweater color? Deities are not that petty, not even in those bronze age tales, its just showing human flaws and fears.

mistrial9 2y ago
that's all brave and probably well intentioned, but there is another side to it. The Bible was specifically "a single agreed upon text" so that groups of people in real life could stop fighting about theology points, big and small. It still exists today. "The Bible is the Truth" end of statement. It is not because you personally cannot find new meaning in non-Bible things.. it is specifically to get groups of people "on the same page" .. that phrase is used today. The written nature of it also tends toward stability. Perhaps in an unsatisfying way to an adolescent, the answer is there already, and you personally find your place in the order that is established by your ancestors and lead you life. Mostly the whole exercise is opposite of adolescent exploration. IMHO this is neither bad nor good. It is boring and meant to be boring, to prevent deadly conflict, wasted efforts, petty differences etc. Based on this boring interpretation, Christians went on to build massive, mighty buildings, large civilized empires and vast written knowledge available to literate citizens. Those things did not have to happen at all. The triumph is that they did happen. In modern times we mostly dont even regard these things, since they are "obvious." Please note that I am not saying this is the only one True Path at all, just describing things.