4 ms·

Thing is, Christianity is (should be? idk) based on the teachings of Jesus which separated from Judaism; on prayer and worship, the New Testament has teachings

Thing is, Christianity is (should be? idk) based on the teachings of Jesus which separated from Judaism; on prayer and worship, the New Testament has teachings like: > Matthew 6:5-14 > 5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. That is, he teaches a humble, private, and not-showy way of praying, as opposed to the Jews of their time. But this is causing tension and schisms in Christian churches everywhere. I grew up in a fairly conservative one - grey suits, quiet / low energy services, nothing too outlandish. But family of mine ended up in more Evangelical churches, with live music and the like. Then there's Catholics where opulence and grandeur is apparent in their cathedrals, and while I can appreciate them for their architecture and atmosphere and the like, I don't think that's in line with Jesus' teachings of humility and helping the poor etc, especially not given how much money goes and went around in the church.

christopher8827 2y ago
> I don't think that's in line with Jesus' teachings of humility and helping the poor etc, especially not given how much money goes and went around in the church. Hmm, but in the Exodus, the ark of the covenant was glided in gold with cherubs on the four corners. Same with the Jewish Temple, it was probably decked out in marble. Unlike Protestants, Catholicism have arts, choral music and statues and architecture not because they are "worshipping it" but because these things are supposed to direct the mind upwards towards God. I think the Catholic Mass is the ancient form of worship by the early Church. There's multiple references to the Real Presence in the Eucharist in New Testament (ie. the road to Eramus and the breaking of bread, and in John 6:53*) and the Sanctus is still in the Eucharistic Prayer, and besides, its an obvious break with the Jews who did burnt offerings in the Temple. John 6:53–58, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”
- nemomarx 2y ago
  Well yeah, opulent temples are in line with Jewish traditions but the other poster is suggesting that's not in line with the teaching of the new testament specifically?
  - kcplate 2y ago
    Not necessarily but like much interpretations differ. An old retired pastor friend once described the story of Mary anointing Christ with the expensive oil and being chastised by Judas as a “waste” with Jesus correcting Judas (John 12). He expressed that story as possibly symbolic of how we should regard Christ as the glorious king of kings and despite His servant humility, He is still deserving of the finest we have including opulence in His houses of worship. We had this conversation while I was struggling as a member of the church over a remodel of our sanctuary and what I felt were excessive expenses that were more for beauty than function. Essentially “a waste”. I asked his opinion Always kind of thought provoking when an octogenarian pastor makes you realize that you identified with Judas’s attitude.
    - NemoNobody 2y ago
      Does this story feel legit to you? Judas - the Betrayer who trades his divine friend with like tons of followers and influence for silver pieces, 30 of them I think, Judas speaks to materialism as unnecessary and Jesus corrects him as "well for me and my Dad, expensive is appropriate" - the guy who gets to town and is all like, "where the tax collectors and prostitutes be at?" They were the most controversial figures in that society... Today, were Jesus to show up today, already having been born to some woman immaculately a fews back, he wouldn't step foot into a Church with his name on it - you'd be far more likely to find him hanging out with Trans people, homeless - he tended to have a thing for broken people, something about improving them and whatnot.
      - kcplate 2y ago
        > Does this story feel legit to you? No more or less than any story from that time period. What is in the Bible is literal, historical, metaphorical, philosophical…etc. So could it be true? Sure. Could it be an illustrative fiction? Sure. Could it be false or mistranslated? Sure. Could the message require a contemporary contextual understanding that we don’t have in 2024? Sure. > Today, were Jesus to show up today, already having been born to some woman immaculately a fews back, he wouldn't step foot into a Church with his name on it It’s always funny to me when someone (anyone…from any side or spectrum of the theological debate) seems so confident that they know how “Jesus today” would behave, when apparently from the accounts written near to when he was present on the earth even his closest disciples and friends who were with him at the time were often surprised by his behavior. To make the claim that He would shun His houses today doesn’t seem to be rooted in the historical understanding about Him that we do we have. He apparently wasn’t too happy with what was happening in the Temple at that time, but still set foot in it, if only to make a point. > you'd be far more likely to find him hanging out with Trans people, homeless - he tended to have a thing for broken people, something about improving them and whatnot Back then He sought out the rich, the poor, the right, the wrong, the clean and unclean, the nobility, the nobodies, the religious, the Jews, the gentiles—basically all folks of all types that were milling about in Judea in that time period. Would that somehow be different in 2024 and He would just gravitate to marginalized people? Doesn’t seem to be in character with what He did then.
batch12 2y ago
While your reference talks about prayer which is distinct from worship, I think that the instructions around prayer and worship are related. However, I dont think the message is to be reserved, but instead be honest. I understand this verse to mean don't be fake, God knows your heart. Be real. Here are a few examples that reinforce why I think this. When talking to the Samaritan woman at the well Jesus talks about worship being true and of the spirit. John 4:23-24 NIV [23] Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. [24] God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth. A reminder to forgive and seek forgiveness from those you have wronged (as reinforced in Matthew 6:14-15, Leviticus 19:18, Proverbs 17:9 ) before asking for forgiveness and before worshipping God: Matthew 5:23-24 NIV [23] “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, [24] leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift. Showing that fake worship means little: Matthew 15 8:9 (NIV) quoting Isaiah 29:13 [8] “ ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. [9] They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’ ”
- NemoNobody 2y ago
  Exactly this - very well said.
emmelaich 2y ago
FWIW, this has changed a lot. Catholic churches built in the last 50 years are far more austere than those built earlier.
- mistrial9 2y ago
  I believe it, modern society has killed the artisans crafts. No one can make the old style ornament now.
  - riskable 2y ago
    Nonsense! It just isn't economical. There's loads of artisans that can expertly sculpt/carve marble, wood, etc. It's just if you want to hire someone (or a team of people) to create such things it could cost more than the building itself. Much cheaper to adorn your church with mass-manufactured statues made from molds and they give you that same air of creepiness for a tenth or 100th the price :thumbsup:.
  - emmelaich 2y ago
    I think it's more that Catholics were sensitive to the accusations of idolatry. So they reduced the use of statues of Jesus, Mary and more. And iconography.
- abrenuntio 2y ago
  It's a catastrophe, not just esthetically but spiritually as well. It has nothing to do with austerity or wealth. Some of the churches no longer seek to express holiness ("having been set aside for God") and support the numinous and eternal nature of the divine liturgy that takes place in them. One of the most breathtaking pictures I've ever seen in this regard is of Mass in a German church completely destroyed during WW2. https://www.churchpop.com/content/images/size/w1200/wordpress/2015/04/92.jpg https://www.churchpop.com/content/images/size/w1200/wordpres... "Stat crux dum volvitur orbis"...
  - madars 2y ago
    Exactly. Sacred architecture flows necessarily from essence (what church is) through substance (can't be accident or easy-to-vary) into form (matter receiving truth). Regrettably, accidents get commonly confused for substance like mistaking material poverty for spiritual authenticity, or adorning for corruption. Poor churches in middle ages still had a golden chalice (for literal God), cruciform layout (or other hard-to-vary forms in orthodox churches), eastern orientation, and an elevated altar. Why would a church built in A.D. 2024 have less?
abrenuntio 2y ago
"This perfume was worth an entire year's wages. Why wasn't it sold and the money given to the poor?" Sacred art exists to honor the Lord. We ourselves may remain poor and humble in the middle of all this beauty :-)
- NemoNobody 2y ago
  Yeah... and it's for God and the King that he so divinely ordained rule over all of us bc that is how that was, the church and the palace had all the money and they supported each other for thousands of years
throw0101b 2y ago
> Then there's Catholics where opulence and grandeur is apparent […] It is not "opulence and grandeur" that are on display, but beauty, or Beauty: * https://ndpr.nd.edu/reviews/aquinas-on-beauty/ https://ndpr.nd.edu/reviews/aquinas-on-beauty/ * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendentals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendentals See also "Beauty, Truth, and Goodness": * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7RSQpDnYUY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7RSQpDnYUY
graemep 2y ago
> Then there's Catholics where opulence and grandeur is apparent in their cathedrals, and while I can appreciate them for their architecture and atmosphere and the like, I don't think that's in line with Jesus' teachings of humility and helping the poor etc, I think it depends on the motivation. If it is to elevate people's minds it is fine, if it is to show wealth and power it is not. > especially not given how much money goes and went around in the church. The church does actually use a lot of its income for the poor. It mostly does this in third world countries so its not evident in rich countries. Its not that long ago (20 or 30 years) that the church was the largest operator of AIDS clinics in the world - mostly in Africa where the need was great but the money was lacking. The same is true of other large Christian churches. They also tend to follow the rules of doing good quietly so they do not do PR to let everyone know what they are doing like secular philanthropists. Its something you can verify. Some bits of the Catholic church (I recall finding a Vatican statement of income and expenditure a while back) make accounts public, and I think many other churches must do too.

christopher8827 2y ago

> I don't think that's in line with Jesus' teachings of humility and helping the poor etc, especially not given how much money goes and went around in the church. Hmm, but in the Exodus, the ark of the covenant was glided in gold with cherubs on the four corners. Same with the Jewish Temple, it was probably decked out in marble. Unlike Protestants, Catholicism have arts, choral music and statues and architecture not because they are "worshipping it" but because these things are supposed to direct the mind upwards towards God. I think the Catholic Mass is the ancient form of worship by the early Church. There's multiple references to the Real Presence in the Eucharist in New Testament (ie. the road to Eramus and the breaking of bread, and in John 6:53*) and the Sanctus is still in the Eucharistic Prayer, and besides, its an obvious break with the Jews who did burnt offerings in the Temple. John 6:53–58, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

nemomarx 2y ago
Well yeah, opulent temples are in line with Jewish traditions but the other poster is suggesting that's not in line with the teaching of the new testament specifically?
- kcplate 2y ago
  Not necessarily but like much interpretations differ. An old retired pastor friend once described the story of Mary anointing Christ with the expensive oil and being chastised by Judas as a “waste” with Jesus correcting Judas (John 12). He expressed that story as possibly symbolic of how we should regard Christ as the glorious king of kings and despite His servant humility, He is still deserving of the finest we have including opulence in His houses of worship. We had this conversation while I was struggling as a member of the church over a remodel of our sanctuary and what I felt were excessive expenses that were more for beauty than function. Essentially “a waste”. I asked his opinion Always kind of thought provoking when an octogenarian pastor makes you realize that you identified with Judas’s attitude.
  - NemoNobody 2y ago
    Does this story feel legit to you? Judas - the Betrayer who trades his divine friend with like tons of followers and influence for silver pieces, 30 of them I think, Judas speaks to materialism as unnecessary and Jesus corrects him as "well for me and my Dad, expensive is appropriate" - the guy who gets to town and is all like, "where the tax collectors and prostitutes be at?" They were the most controversial figures in that society... Today, were Jesus to show up today, already having been born to some woman immaculately a fews back, he wouldn't step foot into a Church with his name on it - you'd be far more likely to find him hanging out with Trans people, homeless - he tended to have a thing for broken people, something about improving them and whatnot.
    - kcplate 2y ago
      > Does this story feel legit to you? No more or less than any story from that time period. What is in the Bible is literal, historical, metaphorical, philosophical…etc. So could it be true? Sure. Could it be an illustrative fiction? Sure. Could it be false or mistranslated? Sure. Could the message require a contemporary contextual understanding that we don’t have in 2024? Sure. > Today, were Jesus to show up today, already having been born to some woman immaculately a fews back, he wouldn't step foot into a Church with his name on it It’s always funny to me when someone (anyone…from any side or spectrum of the theological debate) seems so confident that they know how “Jesus today” would behave, when apparently from the accounts written near to when he was present on the earth even his closest disciples and friends who were with him at the time were often surprised by his behavior. To make the claim that He would shun His houses today doesn’t seem to be rooted in the historical understanding about Him that we do we have. He apparently wasn’t too happy with what was happening in the Temple at that time, but still set foot in it, if only to make a point. > you'd be far more likely to find him hanging out with Trans people, homeless - he tended to have a thing for broken people, something about improving them and whatnot Back then He sought out the rich, the poor, the right, the wrong, the clean and unclean, the nobility, the nobodies, the religious, the Jews, the gentiles—basically all folks of all types that were milling about in Judea in that time period. Would that somehow be different in 2024 and He would just gravitate to marginalized people? Doesn’t seem to be in character with what He did then.

batch12 2y ago

While your reference talks about prayer which is distinct from worship, I think that the instructions around prayer and worship are related. However, I dont think the message is to be reserved, but instead be honest. I understand this verse to mean don't be fake, God knows your heart. Be real. Here are a few examples that reinforce why I think this. When talking to the Samaritan woman at the well Jesus talks about worship being true and of the spirit. John 4:23-24 NIV [23] Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. [24] God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth. A reminder to forgive and seek forgiveness from those you have wronged (as reinforced in Matthew 6:14-15, Leviticus 19:18, Proverbs 17:9 ) before asking for forgiveness and before worshipping God: Matthew 5:23-24 NIV [23] “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, [24] leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift. Showing that fake worship means little: Matthew 15 8:9 (NIV) quoting Isaiah 29:13 [8] “ ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. [9] They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’ ”

NemoNobody 2y ago
Exactly this - very well said.

emmelaich 2y ago

FWIW, this has changed a lot. Catholic churches built in the last 50 years are far more austere than those built earlier.

mistrial9 2y ago
I believe it, modern society has killed the artisans crafts. No one can make the old style ornament now.
- riskable 2y ago
  Nonsense! It just isn't economical. There's loads of artisans that can expertly sculpt/carve marble, wood, etc. It's just if you want to hire someone (or a team of people) to create such things it could cost more than the building itself. Much cheaper to adorn your church with mass-manufactured statues made from molds and they give you that same air of creepiness for a tenth or 100th the price :thumbsup:.
- emmelaich 2y ago
  I think it's more that Catholics were sensitive to the accusations of idolatry. So they reduced the use of statues of Jesus, Mary and more. And iconography.
abrenuntio 2y ago
It's a catastrophe, not just esthetically but spiritually as well. It has nothing to do with austerity or wealth. Some of the churches no longer seek to express holiness ("having been set aside for God") and support the numinous and eternal nature of the divine liturgy that takes place in them. One of the most breathtaking pictures I've ever seen in this regard is of Mass in a German church completely destroyed during WW2. https://www.churchpop.com/content/images/size/w1200/wordpress/2015/04/92.jpg https://www.churchpop.com/content/images/size/w1200/wordpres... "Stat crux dum volvitur orbis"...
- madars 2y ago
  Exactly. Sacred architecture flows necessarily from essence (what church is) through substance (can't be accident or easy-to-vary) into form (matter receiving truth). Regrettably, accidents get commonly confused for substance like mistaking material poverty for spiritual authenticity, or adorning for corruption. Poor churches in middle ages still had a golden chalice (for literal God), cruciform layout (or other hard-to-vary forms in orthodox churches), eastern orientation, and an elevated altar. Why would a church built in A.D. 2024 have less?

abrenuntio 2y ago

"This perfume was worth an entire year's wages. Why wasn't it sold and the money given to the poor?" Sacred art exists to honor the Lord. We ourselves may remain poor and humble in the middle of all this beauty :-)

NemoNobody 2y ago
Yeah... and it's for God and the King that he so divinely ordained rule over all of us bc that is how that was, the church and the palace had all the money and they supported each other for thousands of years

throw0101b 2y ago

> Then there's Catholics where opulence and grandeur is apparent […] It is not "opulence and grandeur" that are on display, but beauty, or Beauty: * https://ndpr.nd.edu/reviews/aquinas-on-beauty/ https://ndpr.nd.edu/reviews/aquinas-on-beauty/ * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendentals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendentals See also "Beauty, Truth, and Goodness": * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7RSQpDnYUY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7RSQpDnYUY

graemep 2y ago

> Then there's Catholics where opulence and grandeur is apparent in their cathedrals, and while I can appreciate them for their architecture and atmosphere and the like, I don't think that's in line with Jesus' teachings of humility and helping the poor etc, I think it depends on the motivation. If it is to elevate people's minds it is fine, if it is to show wealth and power it is not. > especially not given how much money goes and went around in the church. The church does actually use a lot of its income for the poor. It mostly does this in third world countries so its not evident in rich countries. Its not that long ago (20 or 30 years) that the church was the largest operator of AIDS clinics in the world - mostly in Africa where the need was great but the money was lacking. The same is true of other large Christian churches. They also tend to follow the rules of doing good quietly so they do not do PR to let everyone know what they are doing like secular philanthropists. Its something you can verify. Some bits of the Catholic church (I recall finding a Vatican statement of income and expenditure a while back) make accounts public, and I think many other churches must do too.