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Speaking as a participant in a number of somewhat "modern" Christian traditions, I think one factor is that we have changed quite a lot and then some strands of

Speaking as a participant in a number of somewhat "modern" Christian traditions, I think one factor is that we have changed quite a lot and then some strands of the faith have decided to go back into the past and seek what we lost from the early days. One example being certain rock'n'roll churches where people stick their hands up in the air while singing and praying: I heard one pastor defend this as being "this is not a new form of prayer, this is what Jewish people were doing hundreds/thousands of years ago and now we're bringing it back". (See the rather-ancient Book of Exodus, for example. No electric guitars or drum kits there[0], but Moses is definitely described as holding his hands up in prayer, sometimes with the help of Joshua when his arms got tired). [0] though I'm afraid to admit there is at least one actual tambourine...

wil421 2y ago
What about the rattle snake churches?
- FearNotDaniel 2y ago
  What about them? Are you asking about the scriptural basis from ancient times that they use to justify their modern practices? (i.e. the immediate topic at hand) Or are you looking for theological and/or scientific opinions on whether the claims they make are true, for at least some meaning of the word “true”?
- markovs_gun 2y ago
  They also claim to be reviving an ancient practice, although the evidence for that actually being true is very lacking
  - FearNotDaniel 2y ago
    There is nothing in the Bible that describes the practice they promote. Sure, there is a claim that people who are filled with the Holy Spirit will not die if bitten by snakes, but no description of it being used as a ritual practice and you could claim it contradicts “do not put the Lord God to the test”. I have no idea if there is extra-biblical evidence for people doing that in early churches, and whether those churches were considered orthodox or heretical at the time, or perhaps the 1st century equivalent of “we don’t know yet, we’re just trying stuff out to see what works”.
    - aziaziazi 2y ago
      Im going to cite (slightly shorten) Wikipedia. I have no competency to understand the sources and fact check but I though it’s quite interesting. > In the 2nd century the Ophites reportedly handled snakes during their services, and also worshipped the serpent. > The Ophites […] were a Christian Gnostic sect. > Gnosticism […] is a collection of religious ideas and systems that coalesced in the late 1st century AD among Jewish and early Christian sects. These diverse groups emphasized personal spiritual knowledge (gnosis) above the proto-orthodox teachings, traditions, and authority of religious institutions. Seems very reasonable sects to me but it’s understandable "authorities of religious institutions" didn’t like it. Indeed extra biblical gospel from Luke and Mark: > Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. > And these signs shall follow them that believe: In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. IMHO Gospels are comparable with the Bible as a source of history.
      - NemoNobody 2y ago
        Gnosticism is a bit of a catchall - the Ophites were a sect or branch and not by any means the standard - it's difficult to say there is an established "Standard Gnostic Theology" as there really isn't, there are some common deviations from modern Christianity that rendered them more similar thru a modern lens than they may be, tho they are some common Gnostic themes, like self awareness but snake charming isn't one. That said, snakes have been widely deified thru out history by various cultures and beliefs. Prior to Christianity the god Tiamet would have been widely known and had been so for hundreds of years. It is common practice for a religion to take the previous god and render them the "bad guy" in their new religion - that could also have been done to the Ophites as the Gnostics were essentially erased by the Church and what little remains the establishment said about them has been rendered sus by what we have found recently of OG Gnostic texts. You have to realize, by 400 - saying someone handles snakes during their church service was a kin to saying they are a satanic cult. That said - Gnostics would handle snakes if they wanted or needed to and they would be fine bc that is the faith they preached, a faith of action. Step onto the water - you will not sink of you do and have faith already, no more is needed in the moment, no assistance from Priest or higher power. Christianity adopted the faith of Paul - the apostle not chosen by Christ, and became people that wait in their beliefs, faithfully waiting for God. Huge difference.
Cthulhu_ 2y ago
Thing is, Christianity is (should be? idk) based on the teachings of Jesus which separated from Judaism; on prayer and worship, the New Testament has teachings like: > Matthew 6:5-14 > 5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. That is, he teaches a humble, private, and not-showy way of praying, as opposed to the Jews of their time. But this is causing tension and schisms in Christian churches everywhere. I grew up in a fairly conservative one - grey suits, quiet / low energy services, nothing too outlandish. But family of mine ended up in more Evangelical churches, with live music and the like. Then there's Catholics where opulence and grandeur is apparent in their cathedrals, and while I can appreciate them for their architecture and atmosphere and the like, I don't think that's in line with Jesus' teachings of humility and helping the poor etc, especially not given how much money goes and went around in the church.
- christopher8827 2y ago
  > I don't think that's in line with Jesus' teachings of humility and helping the poor etc, especially not given how much money goes and went around in the church. Hmm, but in the Exodus, the ark of the covenant was glided in gold with cherubs on the four corners. Same with the Jewish Temple, it was probably decked out in marble. Unlike Protestants, Catholicism have arts, choral music and statues and architecture not because they are "worshipping it" but because these things are supposed to direct the mind upwards towards God. I think the Catholic Mass is the ancient form of worship by the early Church. There's multiple references to the Real Presence in the Eucharist in New Testament (ie. the road to Eramus and the breaking of bread, and in John 6:53*) and the Sanctus is still in the Eucharistic Prayer, and besides, its an obvious break with the Jews who did burnt offerings in the Temple. John 6:53–58, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”
bjourne 2y ago
That's because Yahweh was a sky god and lived high up in the clouds. So raising your hands, standing on mountain tops, etc, reduces your distance to him. Raising your hands while praying doesn't make as much sense anymore since Heaven is a metaphysical concept and not a place in the skies.
wahern 2y ago
I believe what you're describing is "orans": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orans

wil421 2y ago

What about the rattle snake churches?

FearNotDaniel 2y ago
What about them? Are you asking about the scriptural basis from ancient times that they use to justify their modern practices? (i.e. the immediate topic at hand) Or are you looking for theological and/or scientific opinions on whether the claims they make are true, for at least some meaning of the word “true”?
markovs_gun 2y ago
They also claim to be reviving an ancient practice, although the evidence for that actually being true is very lacking
- FearNotDaniel 2y ago
  There is nothing in the Bible that describes the practice they promote. Sure, there is a claim that people who are filled with the Holy Spirit will not die if bitten by snakes, but no description of it being used as a ritual practice and you could claim it contradicts “do not put the Lord God to the test”. I have no idea if there is extra-biblical evidence for people doing that in early churches, and whether those churches were considered orthodox or heretical at the time, or perhaps the 1st century equivalent of “we don’t know yet, we’re just trying stuff out to see what works”.
  - aziaziazi 2y ago
    Im going to cite (slightly shorten) Wikipedia. I have no competency to understand the sources and fact check but I though it’s quite interesting. > In the 2nd century the Ophites reportedly handled snakes during their services, and also worshipped the serpent. > The Ophites […] were a Christian Gnostic sect. > Gnosticism […] is a collection of religious ideas and systems that coalesced in the late 1st century AD among Jewish and early Christian sects. These diverse groups emphasized personal spiritual knowledge (gnosis) above the proto-orthodox teachings, traditions, and authority of religious institutions. Seems very reasonable sects to me but it’s understandable "authorities of religious institutions" didn’t like it. Indeed extra biblical gospel from Luke and Mark: > Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. > And these signs shall follow them that believe: In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. IMHO Gospels are comparable with the Bible as a source of history.
    - NemoNobody 2y ago
      Gnosticism is a bit of a catchall - the Ophites were a sect or branch and not by any means the standard - it's difficult to say there is an established "Standard Gnostic Theology" as there really isn't, there are some common deviations from modern Christianity that rendered them more similar thru a modern lens than they may be, tho they are some common Gnostic themes, like self awareness but snake charming isn't one. That said, snakes have been widely deified thru out history by various cultures and beliefs. Prior to Christianity the god Tiamet would have been widely known and had been so for hundreds of years. It is common practice for a religion to take the previous god and render them the "bad guy" in their new religion - that could also have been done to the Ophites as the Gnostics were essentially erased by the Church and what little remains the establishment said about them has been rendered sus by what we have found recently of OG Gnostic texts. You have to realize, by 400 - saying someone handles snakes during their church service was a kin to saying they are a satanic cult. That said - Gnostics would handle snakes if they wanted or needed to and they would be fine bc that is the faith they preached, a faith of action. Step onto the water - you will not sink of you do and have faith already, no more is needed in the moment, no assistance from Priest or higher power. Christianity adopted the faith of Paul - the apostle not chosen by Christ, and became people that wait in their beliefs, faithfully waiting for God. Huge difference.

Cthulhu_ 2y ago

Thing is, Christianity is (should be? idk) based on the teachings of Jesus which separated from Judaism; on prayer and worship, the New Testament has teachings like: > Matthew 6:5-14 > 5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. That is, he teaches a humble, private, and not-showy way of praying, as opposed to the Jews of their time. But this is causing tension and schisms in Christian churches everywhere. I grew up in a fairly conservative one - grey suits, quiet / low energy services, nothing too outlandish. But family of mine ended up in more Evangelical churches, with live music and the like. Then there's Catholics where opulence and grandeur is apparent in their cathedrals, and while I can appreciate them for their architecture and atmosphere and the like, I don't think that's in line with Jesus' teachings of humility and helping the poor etc, especially not given how much money goes and went around in the church.

christopher8827 2y ago
> I don't think that's in line with Jesus' teachings of humility and helping the poor etc, especially not given how much money goes and went around in the church. Hmm, but in the Exodus, the ark of the covenant was glided in gold with cherubs on the four corners. Same with the Jewish Temple, it was probably decked out in marble. Unlike Protestants, Catholicism have arts, choral music and statues and architecture not because they are "worshipping it" but because these things are supposed to direct the mind upwards towards God. I think the Catholic Mass is the ancient form of worship by the early Church. There's multiple references to the Real Presence in the Eucharist in New Testament (ie. the road to Eramus and the breaking of bread, and in John 6:53*) and the Sanctus is still in the Eucharistic Prayer, and besides, its an obvious break with the Jews who did burnt offerings in the Temple. John 6:53–58, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

bjourne 2y ago

That's because Yahweh was a sky god and lived high up in the clouds. So raising your hands, standing on mountain tops, etc, reduces your distance to him. Raising your hands while praying doesn't make as much sense anymore since Heaven is a metaphysical concept and not a place in the skies.

wahern 2y ago

I believe what you're describing is "orans": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orans