4 ms·

I wouldn't classify hydrogen as "failed" yet. Much of today's industry runs on natural gas. However after many large companies converted to using natural gas in

by Hilift 2y ago

I wouldn't classify hydrogen as "failed" yet. Much of today's industry runs on natural gas. However after many large companies converted to using natural gas in the 1990's, it was almost a disaster due to the price of gas rose dramatically, peaking around 2005 several times today's price. That's ancient history now, but at the time it looked like natural gas was doomed. Then fracking blew the economics away. If the price of gasoline or diesel did what happened to natural gas, there would have been riots. https://www.macrotrends.net/2478/natural-gas-prices-historical-chart https://www.macrotrends.net/2478/natural-gas-prices-historic...

Tade0 2y ago
Hydrogen is already the cheapest it will ever be, as it's made primarily from natural gas. There's of course so-called white hydrogen: https://hydrogeneurope.eu/excitement-grows-about-natural-h2-as-huge-reserves-found-in-france/ https://hydrogeneurope.eu/excitement-grows-about-natural-h2-... But known reserves are really small compared to those of natural gas.
pjc50 2y ago
Hydrogen is just greenwashing for natural gas. No CO2 at the point of use .. but it's dumped into the atmosphere somewhere else when the hydrogen is made from natural gas. You can make it from electrolysis, but it's much more expensive to do so, so that won't happen.
- defrost 2y ago
  Already happening and underway with plans to scale up to current non-green hydrogen global production levels and then beyond. * Central Queensland Hydrogen Project (CQ-H2) A large-scale project that aims to produce 200 tonnes of green hydrogen per day by 2029 and 800 tonnes per day by 2031. The project will supply hydrogen to an ammonia production facility in Gladstone and may eventually export it to Japan * Project Yuri A commercial-scale hydrogen electrolyser project at Yara's Pilbara fertilizer plant that is currently under construction. * Arrowsmith Hydrogen Project-HP1 * ATCO-Hydrogen-Blending-Project * Australian Renewable Energy Hub * Boolathana Project. See: https://www.dcceew.gov.au/energy/hydrogen https://www.dcceew.gov.au/energy/hydrogen
- fc417fc802 2y ago
  > but it's much more expensive to do so, so that won't happen. It's the exact same story for any other subsidized technology at the beginning. If it were already cost competitive then the switch would likely already have happened. One of the common arguments against electric cars used to be that you were still burning coal or natural gas at the end of the day. The technology hasn't remained static either. I barely follow hydrogen stuff but I recall there were several notable advancements in catalysis from various precursors over the past several years. It's exactly the sort of medium to long term gamble that it makes sense for a government to invest in but likely doesn't for a corporation on its own.
- ben_w 2y ago
  > You can make it from electrolysis, but it's much more expensive to do so, so that won't happen. I'm not convinced by that. The cheaper electricity gets, say the way PV is absurdly cheap these days, the less the inefficiency of electrolysis matters. What doesn't change with cheaper PV etc. is that hydrogen is so hard to work with or store, both as a gas and as a liquid. I can't rely on my gut feelings or comparisons to e.g. the space shuttle external fuel tank to say if these problems can be "solved" well-enough at an acceptable cost, as I've only got a GCSE in chemistry from the turn of the millennium.

by Hilift 2y ago

Tade0 2y ago

Hydrogen is already the cheapest it will ever be, as it's made primarily from natural gas. There's of course so-called white hydrogen: https://hydrogeneurope.eu/excitement-grows-about-natural-h2-as-huge-reserves-found-in-france/ https://hydrogeneurope.eu/excitement-grows-about-natural-h2-... But known reserves are really small compared to those of natural gas.

pjc50 2y ago

Hydrogen is just greenwashing for natural gas. No CO2 at the point of use .. but it's dumped into the atmosphere somewhere else when the hydrogen is made from natural gas. You can make it from electrolysis, but it's much more expensive to do so, so that won't happen.

defrost 2y ago
Already happening and underway with plans to scale up to current non-green hydrogen global production levels and then beyond. * Central Queensland Hydrogen Project (CQ-H2) A large-scale project that aims to produce 200 tonnes of green hydrogen per day by 2029 and 800 tonnes per day by 2031. The project will supply hydrogen to an ammonia production facility in Gladstone and may eventually export it to Japan * Project Yuri A commercial-scale hydrogen electrolyser project at Yara's Pilbara fertilizer plant that is currently under construction. * Arrowsmith Hydrogen Project-HP1 * ATCO-Hydrogen-Blending-Project * Australian Renewable Energy Hub * Boolathana Project. See: https://www.dcceew.gov.au/energy/hydrogen https://www.dcceew.gov.au/energy/hydrogen
fc417fc802 2y ago
> but it's much more expensive to do so, so that won't happen. It's the exact same story for any other subsidized technology at the beginning. If it were already cost competitive then the switch would likely already have happened. One of the common arguments against electric cars used to be that you were still burning coal or natural gas at the end of the day. The technology hasn't remained static either. I barely follow hydrogen stuff but I recall there were several notable advancements in catalysis from various precursors over the past several years. It's exactly the sort of medium to long term gamble that it makes sense for a government to invest in but likely doesn't for a corporation on its own.
ben_w 2y ago
> You can make it from electrolysis, but it's much more expensive to do so, so that won't happen. I'm not convinced by that. The cheaper electricity gets, say the way PV is absurdly cheap these days, the less the inefficiency of electrolysis matters. What doesn't change with cheaper PV etc. is that hydrogen is so hard to work with or store, both as a gas and as a liquid. I can't rely on my gut feelings or comparisons to e.g. the space shuttle external fuel tank to say if these problems can be "solved" well-enough at an acceptable cost, as I've only got a GCSE in chemistry from the turn of the millennium.