4 ms·

Chitose (pop. 98k), though remote, is about 45 minutes by train -- with frequent service -- from Sapporo (pop. 2 mil), which is a fairly big city. This is simi

by wenc 2y ago

Chitose (pop. 98k), though remote, is about 45 minutes by train -- with frequent service -- from Sapporo (pop. 2 mil), which is a fairly big city. This is similar to the commute from Chicago (pop. 2.7 mil) to Downers Grove (pop. 49k), which was my commute. I didn't care to live in the Chicago suburbs, but I didn't mind working out there while living in downtown Chicago. I can see a young family living close to Sapporo, but parents working at TSMC. The other TSMC facility in Kumamoto (pop. 738k) on the other hand is 2 hours from the nearest big city, Fukuoka (2.5 mil). Kumamoto is actually a less tenable location for talent. Yet things seem to be working out (the current workers there are mostly Taiwanese expats though).

majormajor 2y ago
2mil isn't a small town but it's not that big a city, especially if it makes up most of the metro area around it. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_areas_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_areas_in_... the Sapporo metro area is 2.7M. Is that correct? Looking at the map the area between those two places looks a lot sparser, so it seems like definitely more of a small town by a small-to-mid-size-city vibe. The Chicago metro area is 9.6M per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_metropolitan_area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_metropolitan_area so that comparison feels pretty off. I think a lot of people would take living directly in a 738k city over living 45minutes from a 2mil population city in a <100k city. <100k cities are SMALL.
- jmillikin 2y ago
  Sapporo is denser than an American city would be with the same population, for cultural and geographic reasons. And in Japan it's common to have a train commute of 30-60 minutes, though living in Sapporo and commuting to a suburb might be considered more of a "reverse commute" (other direction is more common here IME). Not to mention that Chitose is where Sapporo's international airport is located, so someone who travels often might find it more convenient than living in Sapporo proper.
  - pezezin 2y ago
    Sapporo might be denser that the average American city, but it is still endless urban sprawl. It is nothing like Tokyo or Osaka.
- bugglebeetle 2y ago
  Sapporo/Hokkaido is traditionally where many people in Japan flee from various of life’s foibles and circumstances, so it’s a wonderful city with many colorful characters and great food.
klausa 2y ago
I imagine if I was from Taiwan; Kumamoto would be much more attractive based on climate alone. Sapporo gets cold.
- pezezin 2y ago
  I mentioned it in another comment: I am working in Aomori and my company struggles to find qualified engineers because few people want to live here. The climate is a MAJOR issue. Kyūshū looks like a much more attractive option.
  - wenc 2y ago
    Aomori pop 270k is different — it is somewhat less desirable to someone like me than somewhere close to Sapporo. I don’t think it’s the weather. It’s the isolation. Most Asian people love living around others. We crave the human energy, the hustle and bustle of economic activity, the opportunities, the food, etc. Climate is something one lives with. Given the choice between Bakersfield CA and Chicago, I’d choose Chicago any day, only because the opportunities are greater in Chicago. I absolutely loved living in Chicago. Even Seattle where I live now is too small for me.
    - trallnag 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - klausa 2y ago
        Please don’t do this. Yes, we know, living in big city is not everyone’s cup of tea; you don’t have to ridicule people who have made different choices than you.
      - maeil 2y ago
        > Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes. > Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. > When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." > Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. > Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents. Omit internet tropes.
throwthrow4567 2y ago
[dead]
thrdbndndn 2y ago
> The other TSMC facility in Kumamoto (pop. 738k) on the other hand is 2 hours from the nearest big city, Fukuoka (2.5 mil). Kumamoto is actually a less tenable location for talent. To be blunt, this is a ridiculous comparison. Kumamoto is a large city in its own right, with a very high quality of life. It may not be as close to Fukuoka, but it offers plenty for residents itself. On the other hand, Chitose, while close to Sapporo, is much smaller and doesn't offer the same level of living quality. Sapporo itself, though big, is pretty isolated compared to other parts of Japan, too. Also most people would probably prefer the milder, more temperate weather of Kyushu over Hokkaido's harsh winters.
- impendia 2y ago
  Having lived in Japan, there is something of an attitude there that anywhere other than Tokyo -- or maaaaaybe Osaka if you're feeling generous -- is the sticks. Having been to Sapporo and Kumamoto -- and many other medium-size Japanese cities -- this attitude can seem awful silly when you're walking around their downtowns. But it can be a self-fulfilling prophecy: if people in charge of "opportunities" leave for the biggest cities, then that's what matters. Indeed, on my trip to Kumamoto I was visiting a fellow academic, and when I got there he told me he was trying to move so he could be closer to his family in Tokyo. He has since moved to Nagoya, and apparently is happier there.
  - smallnamespace 2y ago
    People go to Tokyo and Osaka because that's where it's easier to find good-paying jobs.
  - makeitdouble 2y ago
    I think people like medium-size cities in general. Kumamoto in particular is attractive, is decently convenient, good climate, and while Kyushu in general has a conservative image ("Kyushu danshi") it has been changing for the better. But given all of that, Tokyo basically has its own economy, it's own rules, and isn't just "big", it works differently enough that people's choice isn't on which city, but whether they live in the Tokyo area or not. For instance if you're gay, the Tokyo administration will give you an equal marital status. Kids's private school tuitions are partly covered (they're ragingly expensive in the first place, but you get prime access to very competitive schools). Health care will usually be completely free for kids. Remote working is usually treated differently if you're vaguely in the area or if you need a flight, living in the mountains in Okutama will land a better deal that living in Shizuoka, even if commute wise it's probably the same. This is of course an issue, especially as national policies need to fit both worlds which is a pretty hard (the whole discourse on the spouse wage limit is basically centered on this divide)
xigency 2y ago
> I didn't care to live in the Chicago suburbs, but I didn't mind working out there while living in downtown Chicago. I hear this a lot, but I'm quite the opposite. The suburbs are nice and quiet and I can go to the city for anything I need if ever. Similarly, I will say that the smaller towns in Japan are quite nice and idyllic, and well within reach of the megalopolises by train.
- EricE 2y ago
  Yes - if Cities were so inherently attractive why did so many willingly flee them during the pandemic and not return?
  - ghaff 2y ago
    Different strokes for different folks. There's an attraction to having more space/less noise/etc. and being able to travel into a big city for activities without too much hassle/time. There's also an attraction to having a probably smaller place and just walk/cab/transit to those activities. I ended up mostly gravitating to the former but I understand the attraction of the latter and, who knows, I may change my preference some day.
  - dukeyukey 2y ago
    Probably because the things that make cities attractive were literally outlawed during COVID?
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    Framed differently, I think that for most people, jobs are the primary driver for urbanization.
  - mmooss 2y ago
    The pandemic was not a normal situation. There are centuries of evidence about cities, pre- and now post-pandemic. Some clear empirical data is housing prices: People are willing to pay far more to live in many cities than anywhere else, often for much smaller residences.
akg_67 2y ago
> Chitose (pop. 98k), though remote, is about 45 minutes by train -- with frequent service -- from Sapporo (pop. 2 mil), which is a fairly big city. > I can see a young family living close to Sapporo, but parents working at TSMC. The Chitose factory is not being built by TSMC, it is a Rapidus venture (IIRC Toshiba/Kioxia is one of the partners). They just received delivery of first EUV from ASML this week. No one with young family will live in Sapporo, too far specially during 5 months of winter when train disruptions/cancellations are frequent due to excessive snow/blizzards. For example, just this week, every day JR trains were cancelled and/or fewer trains were in operation, it snowed every day and temperature below zero. Most permanent workers will likely live between Kita Hiroshima (Ohtani's Japanese Pro baseball team new stadium located there) in the north and Tomakomai in the south. Sapporo population is less than 2 millions and declining (1,969,058 in March 2024 declined from 1,972,381 in April 2022). All municipalities within Hokkaido prefecture have declining population, only exception recently was Eniwa (near Chitose) where population increased by couple of dozen people, increase attributed to enrollment of international students in the area after lifting of COVID restrictions. > The other TSMC facility in Kumamoto (pop. 738k) on the other hand is 2 hours from the nearest big city, Fukuoka (2.5 mil). Kumamoto is actually a less tenable location for talent. Yet things seem to be working out (the current workers there are mostly Taiwanese expats though). Kumamoto is actually better/preferred location for Taiwanese expats, from proximity to Taiwan and warmer weather perspective, only little over an hour away from Fukuoka by Shinkansen. In comparison, Hokkaido is too cold and isolated, no high speed rail link to Chitose/Sapporo area or to mainland (Honshu). Source: Live in Sapporo, also have lived in Ottawa, Toronto, and Seattle; was approached earlier this year by someone on HN for onsite role with a Rapidus US supplier.
nikanj 2y ago
Kumamoto is in the same ballpark as many European capitals, such as Athens, Helsinki. Most people don't consider those cities "too small to attract talent"

by wenc 2y ago

majormajor 2y ago

2mil isn't a small town but it's not that big a city, especially if it makes up most of the metro area around it. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_areas_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_areas_in_... the Sapporo metro area is 2.7M. Is that correct? Looking at the map the area between those two places looks a lot sparser, so it seems like definitely more of a small town by a small-to-mid-size-city vibe. The Chicago metro area is 9.6M per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_metropolitan_area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_metropolitan_area so that comparison feels pretty off. I think a lot of people would take living directly in a 738k city over living 45minutes from a 2mil population city in a <100k city. <100k cities are SMALL.

jmillikin 2y ago
Sapporo is denser than an American city would be with the same population, for cultural and geographic reasons. And in Japan it's common to have a train commute of 30-60 minutes, though living in Sapporo and commuting to a suburb might be considered more of a "reverse commute" (other direction is more common here IME). Not to mention that Chitose is where Sapporo's international airport is located, so someone who travels often might find it more convenient than living in Sapporo proper.
- pezezin 2y ago
  Sapporo might be denser that the average American city, but it is still endless urban sprawl. It is nothing like Tokyo or Osaka.
bugglebeetle 2y ago
Sapporo/Hokkaido is traditionally where many people in Japan flee from various of life’s foibles and circumstances, so it’s a wonderful city with many colorful characters and great food.

klausa 2y ago

I imagine if I was from Taiwan; Kumamoto would be much more attractive based on climate alone. Sapporo gets cold.

pezezin 2y ago
I mentioned it in another comment: I am working in Aomori and my company struggles to find qualified engineers because few people want to live here. The climate is a MAJOR issue. Kyūshū looks like a much more attractive option.
- wenc 2y ago
  Aomori pop 270k is different — it is somewhat less desirable to someone like me than somewhere close to Sapporo. I don’t think it’s the weather. It’s the isolation. Most Asian people love living around others. We crave the human energy, the hustle and bustle of economic activity, the opportunities, the food, etc. Climate is something one lives with. Given the choice between Bakersfield CA and Chicago, I’d choose Chicago any day, only because the opportunities are greater in Chicago. I absolutely loved living in Chicago. Even Seattle where I live now is too small for me.
  - trallnag 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - klausa 2y ago
      Please don’t do this. Yes, we know, living in big city is not everyone’s cup of tea; you don’t have to ridicule people who have made different choices than you.
    - maeil 2y ago
      > Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes. > Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. > When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." > Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. > Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents. Omit internet tropes.

throwthrow4567 2y ago

[dead]

thrdbndndn 2y ago

> The other TSMC facility in Kumamoto (pop. 738k) on the other hand is 2 hours from the nearest big city, Fukuoka (2.5 mil). Kumamoto is actually a less tenable location for talent. To be blunt, this is a ridiculous comparison. Kumamoto is a large city in its own right, with a very high quality of life. It may not be as close to Fukuoka, but it offers plenty for residents itself. On the other hand, Chitose, while close to Sapporo, is much smaller and doesn't offer the same level of living quality. Sapporo itself, though big, is pretty isolated compared to other parts of Japan, too. Also most people would probably prefer the milder, more temperate weather of Kyushu over Hokkaido's harsh winters.

impendia 2y ago
Having lived in Japan, there is something of an attitude there that anywhere other than Tokyo -- or maaaaaybe Osaka if you're feeling generous -- is the sticks. Having been to Sapporo and Kumamoto -- and many other medium-size Japanese cities -- this attitude can seem awful silly when you're walking around their downtowns. But it can be a self-fulfilling prophecy: if people in charge of "opportunities" leave for the biggest cities, then that's what matters. Indeed, on my trip to Kumamoto I was visiting a fellow academic, and when I got there he told me he was trying to move so he could be closer to his family in Tokyo. He has since moved to Nagoya, and apparently is happier there.
- smallnamespace 2y ago
  People go to Tokyo and Osaka because that's where it's easier to find good-paying jobs.
- makeitdouble 2y ago
  I think people like medium-size cities in general. Kumamoto in particular is attractive, is decently convenient, good climate, and while Kyushu in general has a conservative image ("Kyushu danshi") it has been changing for the better. But given all of that, Tokyo basically has its own economy, it's own rules, and isn't just "big", it works differently enough that people's choice isn't on which city, but whether they live in the Tokyo area or not. For instance if you're gay, the Tokyo administration will give you an equal marital status. Kids's private school tuitions are partly covered (they're ragingly expensive in the first place, but you get prime access to very competitive schools). Health care will usually be completely free for kids. Remote working is usually treated differently if you're vaguely in the area or if you need a flight, living in the mountains in Okutama will land a better deal that living in Shizuoka, even if commute wise it's probably the same. This is of course an issue, especially as national policies need to fit both worlds which is a pretty hard (the whole discourse on the spouse wage limit is basically centered on this divide)

xigency 2y ago

> I didn't care to live in the Chicago suburbs, but I didn't mind working out there while living in downtown Chicago. I hear this a lot, but I'm quite the opposite. The suburbs are nice and quiet and I can go to the city for anything I need if ever. Similarly, I will say that the smaller towns in Japan are quite nice and idyllic, and well within reach of the megalopolises by train.

EricE 2y ago
Yes - if Cities were so inherently attractive why did so many willingly flee them during the pandemic and not return?
- ghaff 2y ago
  Different strokes for different folks. There's an attraction to having more space/less noise/etc. and being able to travel into a big city for activities without too much hassle/time. There's also an attraction to having a probably smaller place and just walk/cab/transit to those activities. I ended up mostly gravitating to the former but I understand the attraction of the latter and, who knows, I may change my preference some day.
- dukeyukey 2y ago
  Probably because the things that make cities attractive were literally outlawed during COVID?
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  Framed differently, I think that for most people, jobs are the primary driver for urbanization.
- mmooss 2y ago
  The pandemic was not a normal situation. There are centuries of evidence about cities, pre- and now post-pandemic. Some clear empirical data is housing prices: People are willing to pay far more to live in many cities than anywhere else, often for much smaller residences.

akg_67 2y ago

> Chitose (pop. 98k), though remote, is about 45 minutes by train -- with frequent service -- from Sapporo (pop. 2 mil), which is a fairly big city. > I can see a young family living close to Sapporo, but parents working at TSMC. The Chitose factory is not being built by TSMC, it is a Rapidus venture (IIRC Toshiba/Kioxia is one of the partners). They just received delivery of first EUV from ASML this week. No one with young family will live in Sapporo, too far specially during 5 months of winter when train disruptions/cancellations are frequent due to excessive snow/blizzards. For example, just this week, every day JR trains were cancelled and/or fewer trains were in operation, it snowed every day and temperature below zero. Most permanent workers will likely live between Kita Hiroshima (Ohtani's Japanese Pro baseball team new stadium located there) in the north and Tomakomai in the south. Sapporo population is less than 2 millions and declining (1,969,058 in March 2024 declined from 1,972,381 in April 2022). All municipalities within Hokkaido prefecture have declining population, only exception recently was Eniwa (near Chitose) where population increased by couple of dozen people, increase attributed to enrollment of international students in the area after lifting of COVID restrictions. > The other TSMC facility in Kumamoto (pop. 738k) on the other hand is 2 hours from the nearest big city, Fukuoka (2.5 mil). Kumamoto is actually a less tenable location for talent. Yet things seem to be working out (the current workers there are mostly Taiwanese expats though). Kumamoto is actually better/preferred location for Taiwanese expats, from proximity to Taiwan and warmer weather perspective, only little over an hour away from Fukuoka by Shinkansen. In comparison, Hokkaido is too cold and isolated, no high speed rail link to Chitose/Sapporo area or to mainland (Honshu). Source: Live in Sapporo, also have lived in Ottawa, Toronto, and Seattle; was approached earlier this year by someone on HN for onsite role with a Rapidus US supplier.

nikanj 2y ago

Kumamoto is in the same ballpark as many European capitals, such as Athens, Helsinki. Most people don't consider those cities "too small to attract talent"