5 ms·

Agree to both. And both are incredibly easy problems to solve. For the first just have a law that says: > Any advertised price must include all mandatory taxes

Agree to both. And both are incredibly easy problems to solve. For the first just have a law that says: > Any advertised price must include all mandatory taxes and fees. No exceptions. For the second just have a law that says: > An end user must be allowed to use the same method to cancel as they used to sign up for the service. No exceptions. Additionally, an end user cannot be required to perform more manual actions to cancel than was required to sign up. No exceptions. No one should be against this except greedy corporations. Easily solved, common sense rules that already have working examples in the real world. 1 is already the law in Netherlands and Australia and these countries aren’t falling over from the undue burden placed on businesses. I’ll end with: two cornerstones of a free market are price transparency and the ability/mobility to switch services when a better competing offering emerges. Not having legislation like above to protect those values is anti capitalistic

LorenPechtel 2y ago
But what's a mandatory fee? Free airfare to Hawaii! Fee for paying by cash: $1000 Fee for paying by check: $1100 Fee for paying by credit card: $1050 Fee for middle seat: $200 Fee for window seat: $300 Fee for aisle seat: $250 Note that no fee on this list is mandatory because you always have other options.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 2y ago
  To me that is totally fine. If there are electives, then elective them. Fix the mandatory ones first. Like the “resort fee” hotels charge. Or “cleaning fees”. It becomes trickier when the fee is elective, but a significant part of the advertisement. Southwest Airlines complaining about having to advertise their fares, which come with two bags included, alongside other airlines who don’t include any bags comes to mind. I think there is probably some world where elective fees are included as well though this seems more nebulous. However, let’s not let the perfect be the enemy of the good: Even just including everything that is compulsory in the base price itself, including taxes, would be a massive improvement to the status quo. Fixing this elective fee ambiguity would be a next step
  - danaris 2y ago
    Did you...actually read what they wrote there? The (hypothetical) airfare was listed as "free", but it was impossible to end up paying less than $1200 for it. The point being that even if you have a choice between several fees (making none of them "mandatory" by a narrow reading), you're still paying something beyond the advertised base price. The logical good-faith rule in a case like this would be that you must advertise at least the minimum price anyone would end up paying based on the available "fee choices".
    - LorenPechtel 2y ago
      I'd go a little farther and say that if there are impractical scenarios to avoid the fee it still must be included. (Say, no fee if you pay the fare in Timbuktu.) Advertise it based on the 95th percentile of what actually happens.
    - lxgr 2y ago
      That's very easily solved: The minimum total price of all possible selectable options is the cheapest price that can be legally advertised. Treat non-viable options that just exist as a false baseline as false advertisement, just like it's already illegal to e.g. send out a flyer advertising TVs for $1, but there's only one available at the other end of the state/country. It's really not a practical problem in any country that has the appropriate laws. The only thing it takes to fix this is the political will to do so. I recently ordered cake for $x, with a mandatory selection of "size". The only possible size was "large", which cost an add-on fee of $3. Just make that type of stuff illegal yesterday. Absolutely nothing of value will be lost.
    - mrguyorama 2y ago
      The ACTUAL solution to these problems that HN always seems to be allergic to (because technicians prefer technical solutions, but humans aren't technical) is to make your court system extremely hostile to "clever" bullshit like this. This insistence at having EXACT WORDS for things that aren't exact is just naivety, thinking the world is can be divided perfectly into categories if we just make the categories specific enough! You cannot.
- lmm 2y ago
  So what happens when you buy that ticket and don't pay any of the fees? If you get taken to Hawaii then they're in the clear. If they won't take you without you paying the fee then I guess the fee wasn't optional after all.
  - LorenPechtel 2y ago
    Buy the ticket how? Look at the fees for paying--you can't actually buy the ticket without paying for it.
    - lmm 2y ago
      Well I think advertising a price that you can't get the ticket for needs to be banned.
    - lmm 2y ago
      (To answer the actual question, I was assuming bank transfer, that's the normal cheapest payment option where I live)
- Zak 2y ago
  It looks like the price is $1200, as that's the price for the cheapest practical combination of options. An airline could advertise this as $1200.
xp84 2y ago
No normal humans are against those simple ideas. Problem is that congress is so easy and cheap to bribe that humans influence less than a majority of the votes in congress.

LorenPechtel 2y ago

But what's a mandatory fee? Free airfare to Hawaii! Fee for paying by cash: $1000 Fee for paying by check: $1100 Fee for paying by credit card: $1050 Fee for middle seat: $200 Fee for window seat: $300 Fee for aisle seat: $250 Note that no fee on this list is mandatory because you always have other options.

SOLAR_FIELDS 2y ago
To me that is totally fine. If there are electives, then elective them. Fix the mandatory ones first. Like the “resort fee” hotels charge. Or “cleaning fees”. It becomes trickier when the fee is elective, but a significant part of the advertisement. Southwest Airlines complaining about having to advertise their fares, which come with two bags included, alongside other airlines who don’t include any bags comes to mind. I think there is probably some world where elective fees are included as well though this seems more nebulous. However, let’s not let the perfect be the enemy of the good: Even just including everything that is compulsory in the base price itself, including taxes, would be a massive improvement to the status quo. Fixing this elective fee ambiguity would be a next step
- danaris 2y ago
  Did you...actually read what they wrote there? The (hypothetical) airfare was listed as "free", but it was impossible to end up paying less than $1200 for it. The point being that even if you have a choice between several fees (making none of them "mandatory" by a narrow reading), you're still paying something beyond the advertised base price. The logical good-faith rule in a case like this would be that you must advertise at least the minimum price anyone would end up paying based on the available "fee choices".
  - LorenPechtel 2y ago
    I'd go a little farther and say that if there are impractical scenarios to avoid the fee it still must be included. (Say, no fee if you pay the fare in Timbuktu.) Advertise it based on the 95th percentile of what actually happens.
  - lxgr 2y ago
    That's very easily solved: The minimum total price of all possible selectable options is the cheapest price that can be legally advertised. Treat non-viable options that just exist as a false baseline as false advertisement, just like it's already illegal to e.g. send out a flyer advertising TVs for $1, but there's only one available at the other end of the state/country. It's really not a practical problem in any country that has the appropriate laws. The only thing it takes to fix this is the political will to do so. I recently ordered cake for $x, with a mandatory selection of "size". The only possible size was "large", which cost an add-on fee of $3. Just make that type of stuff illegal yesterday. Absolutely nothing of value will be lost.
  - mrguyorama 2y ago
    The ACTUAL solution to these problems that HN always seems to be allergic to (because technicians prefer technical solutions, but humans aren't technical) is to make your court system extremely hostile to "clever" bullshit like this. This insistence at having EXACT WORDS for things that aren't exact is just naivety, thinking the world is can be divided perfectly into categories if we just make the categories specific enough! You cannot.
lmm 2y ago
So what happens when you buy that ticket and don't pay any of the fees? If you get taken to Hawaii then they're in the clear. If they won't take you without you paying the fee then I guess the fee wasn't optional after all.
- LorenPechtel 2y ago
  Buy the ticket how? Look at the fees for paying--you can't actually buy the ticket without paying for it.
  - lmm 2y ago
    Well I think advertising a price that you can't get the ticket for needs to be banned.
  - lmm 2y ago
    (To answer the actual question, I was assuming bank transfer, that's the normal cheapest payment option where I live)
Zak 2y ago
It looks like the price is $1200, as that's the price for the cheapest practical combination of options. An airline could advertise this as $1200.

xp84 2y ago

No normal humans are against those simple ideas. Problem is that congress is so easy and cheap to bribe that humans influence less than a majority of the votes in congress.