3 ms·

It somehow works almost anywhere outside of NA? It's really not a crazy concept - estimate it based on geolocation and say "more exact will be available once yo

It somehow works almost anywhere outside of NA? It's really not a crazy concept - estimate it based on geolocation and say "more exact will be available once you enter your address". The problem is, that genuinely negatively affect the sales because people see the true price of things.

mulmen 2y ago
> It somehow works almost anywhere outside of NA? Is North America unique in allowing local municipalities to set their own taxes? > It's really not a crazy concept - estimate it based on geolocation and say "more exact will be available once you enter your address". That’s exactly what happens now, except the advertised price is actually correct instead of an “estimate”. I have an intuitive sense for local tax. How can I know what method was used to compute this estimated price?
- tokioyoyo 2y ago
  Out of my head, if I recall correctly, Australia, Japan, Denmark do local municipal taxes as well (some are more flat than others). Anyways, all I was saying that it's a solved UX problem, and the reason why you're not getting full price is because A/B testing has shown that when customers see the complete price, they get a shock and less likely to buy the item. This doesn't have much to do with websites caring about some edge cases that they'll somehow won't be able to give out exact price to you. In the worst case, the shopping websites could ask you to enter your postal code and show all prices with the tax included price.
  - mulmen 2y ago
    So are estimated prices being advertised in Australia, Japan, or Denmark? Why is North America uniquely susceptible to A/B testing? Municipal taxes are not an edgecase in the United States at least. They’re very much the norm, especially in telecommunications.
    - tokioyoyo 2y ago
      Because according to Japanese law, in most of the scenarios, the full price, to your best ability, has to be presented to the potential customer. Same goes for Australia, if I recall correctly. No clue about Denmark, I'm sorry. But assuming it's similar over there as well. It's not that NA is the only one susceptible to A/B testing. It's more of a - it's-grey-area-to-illegal to not show full prices outside of NA.
      - mulmen 2y ago
        Huh, I find that very surprising. Are the estimates gamed at all? Is there any rule around how accurate they have to be?
        tokioyoyo 2y ago
        You just put your postal code and it shows all prices according to your municipality, it will be as exact as you can get. Just go to amazon.jp, it should have a text input somewhere for your postal code to calculate the tax. In terms of gaming, hmm… I guess, you could add wrong municipality’s taxes when you show the original price, and switch over at the checkout. But my assumption is that would be deemed illegal, as you are knowingly misleading the customer. Some in person stores still try a bit to mislead you by putting the full price in smaller font (like including the consumption tax), and exclude it over it in the bigger font. But I can still accept that, as I am informed about the full price somehow.
        mulmen 2y ago
        Ok well obviously if you have the address the correct calculation can be made. That’s consistent with the behavior in the US. What is displayed for price before you put in postal code? What price do generic banner or TV ads display?
        tokioyoyo 2y ago
        My guess is approximate (average?) tax. I'm currently outside of Japan, by default Amazon shows me the price in Yen and says it can't deliver to me. When I put down the postal code in Tokyo, shows the same amount. Probably takes the biggest city's tax rate when it can't determine it through geolocation.
websap 2y ago
I've been working at FAANG for the past 10 years, so this made me absolutely chuckle! I can totally image a PM somewhere calculate the negative bps for this and call the experiment a failure!
- tokioyoyo 2y ago
  Yeah, I totally get you! I've done exactly this work for semi-B2B company where it clearly showed the sticker price effect and we ended up removing the taxes from it. Unless it's legislated, it's obvious the way the companies will go.
HelloMcFly 2y ago
> estimate it based on geolocation and say "more exact will be available once you enter your address". I appreciate this can be done and countries in Europe do it, I just don't see how this is any better at all than status quo: * Current State: we all know the quoted price doesn't include sales tax, which will be added to make the final price in checkout after we enter our address. * Final State: we all know the quoted price will likely change during checkout, when we see the final price after we enter our address. So we make things more complicated for vendors, and we make it not just acceptable but required that vendors use our IP addresses for geolocation, only to give us a maybe-right-maybe-wrong final price. Does anyone feel scammed by not having tax included on the price in the listings of Macy's online store?
- tokioyoyo 2y ago
  The only reason why status quo is there because people are less likely to remove items from their online shopping carts once they've added it. There are techniques and shopping check out flows that have been perfected over the years to drive up the online sales. Realistically, it won't move the needle for the people who are on this forum because of the average salary (a few dollars are usually not a big deal for us), but it can be a make it or break it choice for a good chunk of customers. I'm not sure why one wouldn't want to know the real price before the checkout. It's a bit baffling to me. It could be a cultural thing as well, then I guess, there isn't really a right or wrong way of looking at it.
  - mulmen 2y ago
    > The only reason why status quo is there because people are less likely to remove items from their online shopping carts once they've added it. Sure, in a world where the actual sticker price is displayed. Do you believe this will remain true when customers have to add items to the cart to get the “real” price?
    - tokioyoyo 2y ago
      That's literally how it works everywhere else...? For example, when I go to amazon.jp, even without logging in, it will show you tax included prices once you enter your postal code.
blitzar 2y ago
Apparently they can track you to the nearest 5m 24 hours a day, figure out that your teenage daughter is pregnant and replicate your likeness and voice perfectly - but when it comes to sales tax its an intractable problem.
- ewoodrich 2y ago
  That's a non-sequitur unless the question being considered is specifically whether a data hoarder like Google should build in estimated sales tax in their store vs "a random shopping cart from a retailer I've never interacted with before".
- mulmen 2y ago
  I believe you are referencing the famous Target case. As I understand the dad was angry that Target was sending baby-related coupons to his teenage daughter. Finding out your teenage daughter is pregnant based on her shopping is easy. It’s actually harder not to notice. “Customers like you also bought” is an effective algorithm because people are mostly the same. Pregnancy has some very specific and unique needs which create a strong signal. Nobody is in a shady back room poring over chat logs and GPS coordinates looking for pregnant teenagers. It just falls out of the sysem.

mulmen 2y ago

> It somehow works almost anywhere outside of NA? Is North America unique in allowing local municipalities to set their own taxes? > It's really not a crazy concept - estimate it based on geolocation and say "more exact will be available once you enter your address". That’s exactly what happens now, except the advertised price is actually correct instead of an “estimate”. I have an intuitive sense for local tax. How can I know what method was used to compute this estimated price?

tokioyoyo 2y ago
Out of my head, if I recall correctly, Australia, Japan, Denmark do local municipal taxes as well (some are more flat than others). Anyways, all I was saying that it's a solved UX problem, and the reason why you're not getting full price is because A/B testing has shown that when customers see the complete price, they get a shock and less likely to buy the item. This doesn't have much to do with websites caring about some edge cases that they'll somehow won't be able to give out exact price to you. In the worst case, the shopping websites could ask you to enter your postal code and show all prices with the tax included price.
- mulmen 2y ago
  So are estimated prices being advertised in Australia, Japan, or Denmark? Why is North America uniquely susceptible to A/B testing? Municipal taxes are not an edgecase in the United States at least. They’re very much the norm, especially in telecommunications.
  - tokioyoyo 2y ago
    Because according to Japanese law, in most of the scenarios, the full price, to your best ability, has to be presented to the potential customer. Same goes for Australia, if I recall correctly. No clue about Denmark, I'm sorry. But assuming it's similar over there as well. It's not that NA is the only one susceptible to A/B testing. It's more of a - it's-grey-area-to-illegal to not show full prices outside of NA.
    - mulmen 2y ago
      Huh, I find that very surprising. Are the estimates gamed at all? Is there any rule around how accurate they have to be?
      - tokioyoyo 2y ago
        You just put your postal code and it shows all prices according to your municipality, it will be as exact as you can get. Just go to amazon.jp, it should have a text input somewhere for your postal code to calculate the tax. In terms of gaming, hmm… I guess, you could add wrong municipality’s taxes when you show the original price, and switch over at the checkout. But my assumption is that would be deemed illegal, as you are knowingly misleading the customer. Some in person stores still try a bit to mislead you by putting the full price in smaller font (like including the consumption tax), and exclude it over it in the bigger font. But I can still accept that, as I am informed about the full price somehow.
        mulmen 2y ago
        Ok well obviously if you have the address the correct calculation can be made. That’s consistent with the behavior in the US. What is displayed for price before you put in postal code? What price do generic banner or TV ads display?
        tokioyoyo 2y ago
        My guess is approximate (average?) tax. I'm currently outside of Japan, by default Amazon shows me the price in Yen and says it can't deliver to me. When I put down the postal code in Tokyo, shows the same amount. Probably takes the biggest city's tax rate when it can't determine it through geolocation.

websap 2y ago

I've been working at FAANG for the past 10 years, so this made me absolutely chuckle! I can totally image a PM somewhere calculate the negative bps for this and call the experiment a failure!

tokioyoyo 2y ago
Yeah, I totally get you! I've done exactly this work for semi-B2B company where it clearly showed the sticker price effect and we ended up removing the taxes from it. Unless it's legislated, it's obvious the way the companies will go.

HelloMcFly 2y ago

> estimate it based on geolocation and say "more exact will be available once you enter your address". I appreciate this can be done and countries in Europe do it, I just don't see how this is any better at all than status quo: * Current State: we all know the quoted price doesn't include sales tax, which will be added to make the final price in checkout after we enter our address. * Final State: we all know the quoted price will likely change during checkout, when we see the final price after we enter our address. So we make things more complicated for vendors, and we make it not just acceptable but required that vendors use our IP addresses for geolocation, only to give us a maybe-right-maybe-wrong final price. Does anyone feel scammed by not having tax included on the price in the listings of Macy's online store?

tokioyoyo 2y ago
The only reason why status quo is there because people are less likely to remove items from their online shopping carts once they've added it. There are techniques and shopping check out flows that have been perfected over the years to drive up the online sales. Realistically, it won't move the needle for the people who are on this forum because of the average salary (a few dollars are usually not a big deal for us), but it can be a make it or break it choice for a good chunk of customers. I'm not sure why one wouldn't want to know the real price before the checkout. It's a bit baffling to me. It could be a cultural thing as well, then I guess, there isn't really a right or wrong way of looking at it.
- mulmen 2y ago
  > The only reason why status quo is there because people are less likely to remove items from their online shopping carts once they've added it. Sure, in a world where the actual sticker price is displayed. Do you believe this will remain true when customers have to add items to the cart to get the “real” price?
  - tokioyoyo 2y ago
    That's literally how it works everywhere else...? For example, when I go to amazon.jp, even without logging in, it will show you tax included prices once you enter your postal code.

blitzar 2y ago

Apparently they can track you to the nearest 5m 24 hours a day, figure out that your teenage daughter is pregnant and replicate your likeness and voice perfectly - but when it comes to sales tax its an intractable problem.

ewoodrich 2y ago
That's a non-sequitur unless the question being considered is specifically whether a data hoarder like Google should build in estimated sales tax in their store vs "a random shopping cart from a retailer I've never interacted with before".
mulmen 2y ago
I believe you are referencing the famous Target case. As I understand the dad was angry that Target was sending baby-related coupons to his teenage daughter. Finding out your teenage daughter is pregnant based on her shopping is easy. It’s actually harder not to notice. “Customers like you also bought” is an effective algorithm because people are mostly the same. Pregnancy has some very specific and unique needs which create a strong signal. Nobody is in a shady back room poring over chat logs and GPS coordinates looking for pregnant teenagers. It just falls out of the sysem.