4 ms·

Northern Ireland police unlawfully put reporters under surveillance

106 points by campuscodi 2y ago

all2 2y ago
Of all the places to broach tyranny, you'd think Northern Ireland would know better. I refer to the IRA and the old folks who knew about calculated murder and car bombs to dissuade certain political actions. I am not advocating violence, simply stating that the peoples of Northern Ireland are well familiar with tyranny, and are mentally equipped to do something about it. They used to be, anyway.
- jmkni 2y ago
  One of the side effects of The Troubles was giving the police more power than they have in the rest of the UK. For example, if you are arrested in Northern Ireland, you have no "right to remain silent" thanks to a law brought in in 1988. A court can draw "adverse inferences" (take it as a sign of guilt) if you remain silent during a police interview.
  - dave4420 2y ago
    I’m pretty sure that law got extended to the rest of the UK a few years later. (I agree with your overall point though.)
    - arrowsmith 2y ago
      “You don’t have to say anything, but it may harm your defence if you don’t mention when questioned something that you later rely on in court.” That’s what UK cops say when arresting someone.
      - southernplaces7 2y ago
        What an absolutely repulsive and manipulative abuse of power asymmetry against the civil population. This is especially the case coming from a country that at least ostensibly makes claim to being a defender of civil liberties. To assume that a person going through the deeply stressful, possibly traumatic process of being arrested is going to have a clear mind on what to say, not say or remember as useful for their defense is ridiculous. Nobody should be expected to remember exactly what things to say so that they later don't harm their defense in a potentially complex trial with all kinds possible outcomes and evidence that they know nothing about in advance. This applies especially in not uncommon cases of a victim being arrested by mistake for something they didn't even do. They could easily have no idea at all about why they're being targeted, yet should know what statements they should or shouldn't make right from the moment of their arrest? Laughable nonsense. We can make many arguments for the abusive aspects of the U.S. criminal justice system but at least the basic but generally firm rule of having a complete right to silence gives one decent advantage to those suddenly confronted with judicial power.
  - alamortsubite 2y ago
    The government has also at times permitted the police to torture suspects, and allowed indefinite detention without trial: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-27714715 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-27714715
  - dundarious 2y ago
    Protest laws are very different in NI. Draconian compared to the rest of the UK, at least before the last Tory government's changes.
    - lawlessone 2y ago
      >Protest laws are very different in NI. Draconian compared to the rest of the UK. Yeah but you can close a street and march all day as long as you call it a tradition and not a protest against oil.
  - regularization 2y ago
    Actually you can go back to the 1922 Special Powers Act, or before that even.
NotSammyHagar 2y ago
It shouldn't be amazing but it is endlessly surprising to me that authorities cannot stop abusing their authority to spy on their fellow citizens. The articles doesn't clarify whether this is a case of "shootings are happening right now and we are spying on the reporters for a day or two because there is an urgent need to protect people and maybe their sources will help us", or whether it was "we were irritated that they figured some things out, it was an easy lazy way to try to find out who was giving them info". Authorities will spy on us when given the opportunity for expediency. With everyone carrying around phone/tracking device, your recent vintage car comes with one and then there are just things like tagging devices, apple tags etc. What we need are serious penalties for this spying, but ha ha we are going in the opposite direction. I'm not even in the UK, but I figure authorities in the US are doing this kind of thing too. They try to get text messages, all kinds of surveilance is going on.
- vkou 2y ago
  > It shouldn't be amazing but it is endlessly surprising to me that authorities cannot stop abusing their authority to spy on their fellow citizens. The relationship between the UK and Ireland is less like that of fellow citizens and more like that of a colonial occupier.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - vinay427 2y ago
    This article is about the PSNI, a documentary released in 2017, and surveillance in 2018. While the history between NI, the rest of the UK, and the Republic of Ireland is obviously relevant, it’s a bit of a stretch to reduce this to the relationship between the UK and Ireland.
    - vkou 2y ago
      It's really not. The existence of NI as part of the UK is not something that Irish nationalists have historically been very happy with. They aren't in charge, and the people who are in charge are scared shitless of them ever getting truculent again. And they try to pre-empt it in the only way that they know how.
dylan604 2y ago
"This was one of a number of difficult decisions on a complex and fast moving day," he added. Um, okay. So maybe you made a bad decision rashly on the day, but then every day after that was an opportunity for someone to realize the bad decision and undo it. Instead, they allowed it to continue. That means the fog-of-war type excuse is crap
pessimizer 2y ago
This was a norm completely shattered in the West by the Obama administration, and the Trump administration happily did the same to try to stop their leaking. In the West, "reporters" and "activists" are unofficially certified by the government, and those who are not are considered suspected terrorists. The idea that NI police would hold themselves to a higher standard is laughable. https://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/14/us/phone-records-of-journalists-of-the-associated-press-seized-by-us.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/14/us/phone-records-of-journ... https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fox-news-reporter-secretly-monitored-by-obama-administration-court-documents/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fox-news-reporter-secretly-moni... https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/02/us/trump-administration-phone-records-times-reporters.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/02/us/trump-administration-p... In the US, this attitude has even filtered down to local bosses: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/13/business/media/kansas-marion-newspaper-police-raid.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/13/business/media/kansas-mar...
ajb 2y ago
Tangentially related, but the old Official Secrets act (1920) made this exception for Journalism: 5 (5): "Nothing in this section shall apply to postal packets -addressed to any office where any newspaper or periodical is published, being postal packets in reply to advertisements appearing in such newspaper or periodical." (the rest of the section mandates recording the origin of post or telegrams delivered or forwarded by any business) I've always wondered what caused that exception to be made, but I've not found any historical evidence about it.

106 points by campuscodi 2y ago

all2 2y ago

Of all the places to broach tyranny, you'd think Northern Ireland would know better. I refer to the IRA and the old folks who knew about calculated murder and car bombs to dissuade certain political actions. I am not advocating violence, simply stating that the peoples of Northern Ireland are well familiar with tyranny, and are mentally equipped to do something about it. They used to be, anyway.

jmkni 2y ago
One of the side effects of The Troubles was giving the police more power than they have in the rest of the UK. For example, if you are arrested in Northern Ireland, you have no "right to remain silent" thanks to a law brought in in 1988. A court can draw "adverse inferences" (take it as a sign of guilt) if you remain silent during a police interview.
- dave4420 2y ago
  I’m pretty sure that law got extended to the rest of the UK a few years later. (I agree with your overall point though.)
  - arrowsmith 2y ago
    “You don’t have to say anything, but it may harm your defence if you don’t mention when questioned something that you later rely on in court.” That’s what UK cops say when arresting someone.
    - southernplaces7 2y ago
      What an absolutely repulsive and manipulative abuse of power asymmetry against the civil population. This is especially the case coming from a country that at least ostensibly makes claim to being a defender of civil liberties. To assume that a person going through the deeply stressful, possibly traumatic process of being arrested is going to have a clear mind on what to say, not say or remember as useful for their defense is ridiculous. Nobody should be expected to remember exactly what things to say so that they later don't harm their defense in a potentially complex trial with all kinds possible outcomes and evidence that they know nothing about in advance. This applies especially in not uncommon cases of a victim being arrested by mistake for something they didn't even do. They could easily have no idea at all about why they're being targeted, yet should know what statements they should or shouldn't make right from the moment of their arrest? Laughable nonsense. We can make many arguments for the abusive aspects of the U.S. criminal justice system but at least the basic but generally firm rule of having a complete right to silence gives one decent advantage to those suddenly confronted with judicial power.
- alamortsubite 2y ago
  The government has also at times permitted the police to torture suspects, and allowed indefinite detention without trial: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-27714715 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-27714715
- dundarious 2y ago
  Protest laws are very different in NI. Draconian compared to the rest of the UK, at least before the last Tory government's changes.
  - lawlessone 2y ago
    >Protest laws are very different in NI. Draconian compared to the rest of the UK. Yeah but you can close a street and march all day as long as you call it a tradition and not a protest against oil.
- regularization 2y ago
  Actually you can go back to the 1922 Special Powers Act, or before that even.

NotSammyHagar 2y ago

It shouldn't be amazing but it is endlessly surprising to me that authorities cannot stop abusing their authority to spy on their fellow citizens. The articles doesn't clarify whether this is a case of "shootings are happening right now and we are spying on the reporters for a day or two because there is an urgent need to protect people and maybe their sources will help us", or whether it was "we were irritated that they figured some things out, it was an easy lazy way to try to find out who was giving them info". Authorities will spy on us when given the opportunity for expediency. With everyone carrying around phone/tracking device, your recent vintage car comes with one and then there are just things like tagging devices, apple tags etc. What we need are serious penalties for this spying, but ha ha we are going in the opposite direction. I'm not even in the UK, but I figure authorities in the US are doing this kind of thing too. They try to get text messages, all kinds of surveilance is going on.

vkou 2y ago
> It shouldn't be amazing but it is endlessly surprising to me that authorities cannot stop abusing their authority to spy on their fellow citizens. The relationship between the UK and Ireland is less like that of fellow citizens and more like that of a colonial occupier.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- vinay427 2y ago
  This article is about the PSNI, a documentary released in 2017, and surveillance in 2018. While the history between NI, the rest of the UK, and the Republic of Ireland is obviously relevant, it’s a bit of a stretch to reduce this to the relationship between the UK and Ireland.
  - vkou 2y ago
    It's really not. The existence of NI as part of the UK is not something that Irish nationalists have historically been very happy with. They aren't in charge, and the people who are in charge are scared shitless of them ever getting truculent again. And they try to pre-empt it in the only way that they know how.

dylan604 2y ago

"This was one of a number of difficult decisions on a complex and fast moving day," he added. Um, okay. So maybe you made a bad decision rashly on the day, but then every day after that was an opportunity for someone to realize the bad decision and undo it. Instead, they allowed it to continue. That means the fog-of-war type excuse is crap

pessimizer 2y ago

This was a norm completely shattered in the West by the Obama administration, and the Trump administration happily did the same to try to stop their leaking. In the West, "reporters" and "activists" are unofficially certified by the government, and those who are not are considered suspected terrorists. The idea that NI police would hold themselves to a higher standard is laughable. https://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/14/us/phone-records-of-journalists-of-the-associated-press-seized-by-us.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/14/us/phone-records-of-journ... https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fox-news-reporter-secretly-monitored-by-obama-administration-court-documents/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fox-news-reporter-secretly-moni... https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/02/us/trump-administration-phone-records-times-reporters.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/02/us/trump-administration-p... In the US, this attitude has even filtered down to local bosses: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/13/business/media/kansas-marion-newspaper-police-raid.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/13/business/media/kansas-mar...

ajb 2y ago

Tangentially related, but the old Official Secrets act (1920) made this exception for Journalism: 5 (5): "Nothing in this section shall apply to postal packets -addressed to any office where any newspaper or periodical is published, being postal packets in reply to advertisements appearing in such newspaper or periodical." (the rest of the section mandates recording the origin of post or telegrams delivered or forwarded by any business) I've always wondered what caused that exception to be made, but I've not found any historical evidence about it.