3 ms·

Lack of majority in parliament is nothing new. The 5th made it harder to happen, but when it does, the constitution gives no way to handle the situation. Hard t

by pyrale 2y ago

Lack of majority in parliament is nothing new. The 5th made it harder to happen, but when it does, the constitution gives no way to handle the situation. Hard to get MPs to compromise on something when they know that, soon enough, they'll compete the mother of all election where one side wins all.

mytailorisrich 2y ago
It's the same in parliamentary systems. There is no majority so it's very hard to form a government and that government is very unstable. This has little to do with the 5th Republic, which is actually designed to avoid unstability as much as possible, but it cannot do miracles...
- pyrale 2y ago
  I don't know why discussions on constitutional issues in France always get stuck on the same flawed or outright false claims, but it's annoying. > It's the same in parliamentary systems. Coalitions happen all the time in parliamentary systems. Even in countries with a strong presidential executive, having legislative elections on a separate schedule that help incumbents getting re-elected independently from the head of state helps a lot in getting bipartisan deals. Even in France, the Senate, notwithstanding its issues, is frequently a welcome source of balance of powers for this very reason. > There is no majority so it's very hard to form a government and that government is very unstable. Many countries have parliamentary systems and manage to be stable and working democracies. Many more have mixed systems which are much less forceful than France and also work fine.
  - mytailorisrich 2y ago
    Not sure what's annoying or a "false claim" here... Coalitions may or may not happen in parliamentary systems or now in France. > having legislative elections on a separate schedule that help incumbents getting re-elected independently from the head of state helps a lot in getting bipartisan deals That's how it is in France unless the terms somehow align, which is more common now that Presidential and Parliamentary terms are both 5 years but not guaranteed. In any case this has nothing to do with coalitions, which are a result of a lack of majority, not of the constitutional system per se. > Many countries have parliamentary systems and manage to be stable and working democracies Yes but that's beside the point. The issue in France is that the strong Presidential system is seen as "right wing" not least because it was created by a General so the left likes to criticise. The reality is that it has worked well and that more parliamentarism would not be a silver buller to solve issues, real or perceived.
    - pyrale 2y ago
      > That's how it is in France unless the terms somehow align The terms always "somehow" align, because the president can reset the term of MPs, which is extremely beneficial just after winning the presidential election. Because of that and because the president's mandate now has the same duration has the legislature, the two terms are synchronized, we rarely have snap elections (this year was the first time ever since the 5-year presidential mandate was introduced). The senate works differently, but since it can't block laws, it's less relevant. > but not guaranteed. Situation: you get elected but the Assemblée Nationale is against you. Why would you ever not call snap elections? That's what Mitterand did in 1981 and 1988, and it worked both times. We are extremely likely to have new MP elections in 2027, just after a new president gets elected. > In any case this has nothing to do with coalitions Of course it does. Because the president has so much weight on the executive, and because appearing as principled and uncompromising is important to prepare for the next election, coalitions are too risky for opposition politicians to enter them: they risk too much and they gain too little by entering a coalition. > Yes but that's beside the point. Why? Explaining the lack of coalitions using the concrete constitutional mechanisms that make it impractical makes much more sense than trying to explain it by some immaterial virtue of french political ethos. > The issue in France is that the strong Presidential system is seen as "right wing" not least because it was created by a General so the left likes to criticise. Ah, yes let's make it a partisan issue now. > The reality is that it has worked well Everything works well when there is no hardship.
      - mytailorisrich 2y ago
        Not sure what you are arguing for or against at this point... If you're the President and Parliament is against you and you don't want to quit you have to step aside as happened in 1986, 1993, and 1997 and the system does become essentially parliamentary. Again, coalitions stem from lack of majority and potentially large number of parties, not parliamentary vs Presidential systems per se. You enter a coalition only when you have to. If you have the majority you don't. Countries that have a "culture" of coalitions are those where there are many parties and potentially proportional representation so that majorities in Parliament are rare. Hence the UK which is completely parliamentary but very rarely has coalitions because the system is designed to create majorities, whereas Germany rarely has outright majorities so often has coalitions.
  - sofixa 2y ago
    > Many countries have parliamentary systems and manage to be stable and working democracies. Many more have mixed systems which are much less forceful than France and also work fine. And over the 70 years of the 3rd Republic and 12 of the 4th, stable and working are not labels that could be applied. The average length of a government in that period is around a year, with many being in power even less than that. https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_gouvernements_de_la_France#IVe_R%C3%A9publique_(27_octobre_1946_%E2%80%94_4_octobre_1958) https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_gouvernements_de_la_...
shakow 2y ago
And do you think that laws are the solution to that? Just take a look at Germany right now; their system is much less chancellor-ized, and it is still a clusterfuck right now. Like tech is not the solution to social problems, laws are not the solution to political issues.

by pyrale 2y ago

mytailorisrich 2y ago

It's the same in parliamentary systems. There is no majority so it's very hard to form a government and that government is very unstable. This has little to do with the 5th Republic, which is actually designed to avoid unstability as much as possible, but it cannot do miracles...

pyrale 2y ago
I don't know why discussions on constitutional issues in France always get stuck on the same flawed or outright false claims, but it's annoying. > It's the same in parliamentary systems. Coalitions happen all the time in parliamentary systems. Even in countries with a strong presidential executive, having legislative elections on a separate schedule that help incumbents getting re-elected independently from the head of state helps a lot in getting bipartisan deals. Even in France, the Senate, notwithstanding its issues, is frequently a welcome source of balance of powers for this very reason. > There is no majority so it's very hard to form a government and that government is very unstable. Many countries have parliamentary systems and manage to be stable and working democracies. Many more have mixed systems which are much less forceful than France and also work fine.
- mytailorisrich 2y ago
  Not sure what's annoying or a "false claim" here... Coalitions may or may not happen in parliamentary systems or now in France. > having legislative elections on a separate schedule that help incumbents getting re-elected independently from the head of state helps a lot in getting bipartisan deals That's how it is in France unless the terms somehow align, which is more common now that Presidential and Parliamentary terms are both 5 years but not guaranteed. In any case this has nothing to do with coalitions, which are a result of a lack of majority, not of the constitutional system per se. > Many countries have parliamentary systems and manage to be stable and working democracies Yes but that's beside the point. The issue in France is that the strong Presidential system is seen as "right wing" not least because it was created by a General so the left likes to criticise. The reality is that it has worked well and that more parliamentarism would not be a silver buller to solve issues, real or perceived.
  - pyrale 2y ago
    > That's how it is in France unless the terms somehow align The terms always "somehow" align, because the president can reset the term of MPs, which is extremely beneficial just after winning the presidential election. Because of that and because the president's mandate now has the same duration has the legislature, the two terms are synchronized, we rarely have snap elections (this year was the first time ever since the 5-year presidential mandate was introduced). The senate works differently, but since it can't block laws, it's less relevant. > but not guaranteed. Situation: you get elected but the Assemblée Nationale is against you. Why would you ever not call snap elections? That's what Mitterand did in 1981 and 1988, and it worked both times. We are extremely likely to have new MP elections in 2027, just after a new president gets elected. > In any case this has nothing to do with coalitions Of course it does. Because the president has so much weight on the executive, and because appearing as principled and uncompromising is important to prepare for the next election, coalitions are too risky for opposition politicians to enter them: they risk too much and they gain too little by entering a coalition. > Yes but that's beside the point. Why? Explaining the lack of coalitions using the concrete constitutional mechanisms that make it impractical makes much more sense than trying to explain it by some immaterial virtue of french political ethos. > The issue in France is that the strong Presidential system is seen as "right wing" not least because it was created by a General so the left likes to criticise. Ah, yes let's make it a partisan issue now. > The reality is that it has worked well Everything works well when there is no hardship.
    - mytailorisrich 2y ago
      Not sure what you are arguing for or against at this point... If you're the President and Parliament is against you and you don't want to quit you have to step aside as happened in 1986, 1993, and 1997 and the system does become essentially parliamentary. Again, coalitions stem from lack of majority and potentially large number of parties, not parliamentary vs Presidential systems per se. You enter a coalition only when you have to. If you have the majority you don't. Countries that have a "culture" of coalitions are those where there are many parties and potentially proportional representation so that majorities in Parliament are rare. Hence the UK which is completely parliamentary but very rarely has coalitions because the system is designed to create majorities, whereas Germany rarely has outright majorities so often has coalitions.
- sofixa 2y ago
  > Many countries have parliamentary systems and manage to be stable and working democracies. Many more have mixed systems which are much less forceful than France and also work fine. And over the 70 years of the 3rd Republic and 12 of the 4th, stable and working are not labels that could be applied. The average length of a government in that period is around a year, with many being in power even less than that. https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_gouvernements_de_la_France#IVe_R%C3%A9publique_(27_octobre_1946_%E2%80%94_4_octobre_1958) https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_gouvernements_de_la_...

shakow 2y ago

And do you think that laws are the solution to that? Just take a look at Germany right now; their system is much less chancellor-ized, and it is still a clusterfuck right now. Like tech is not the solution to social problems, laws are not the solution to political issues.