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I liked this sentence. It's so very true. "Just because looking down your nose at C++ or Perl is the popular opinion doesn't mean that those languages aren't b

by 16s 14y ago

I liked this sentence. It's so very true. "Just because looking down your nose at C++ or Perl is the popular opinion doesn't mean that those languages aren't being used by very smart folks to build amazing, finely crafted software."

pjmlp 14y ago
Very true. While bringing lots of money home, I would add.
- konstruktor 14y ago
  I remember, but sadly haven't bookmarked, a blog post by a guy who made a fair share of money building a decent music player for BlackBerry when all cool kids were building iPhone apps. Actual needs that will get people to pay money can be quite unhip.
konstruktor 14y ago
And you get a lot of attention for bashing something, which aggravates the problem.
- pjscott 14y ago
  What problem? You can bash a language without saying anything negative about its users. Not all programming languages are equally good, for any reasonable definition of good. This is a valid thing to discuss.
rbanffy 14y ago
The same can be said about COBOL. Or Visual Basic.
- SilasX 14y ago
  Or PHP (shudders), which Facebook (for some reason) relies on.
  - batista 14y ago
    The "shudder" is against the spirit of the quote you were replying to: "Just because looking down your nose at C++ or Perl is the popular opinion doesn't mean that those languages aren't being used by very smart folks to build amazing, finely crafted software". Ie: don't shudder.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
    - Locke1689 14y ago
      Simply using a language to build interesting software doesn't make it good.
    - SilasX 14y ago
      I accept that smart people are using C++, Perl, and even PHP, to produce amazing, finely crafted software. I do not accept that they are making it any easier on themselves by this choice of language.
      - pbourke 14y ago
        Isn't it easier to work with the tool that you know thoroughly, which may not be "cool", rather than pick up a new tool in a different ecosystem?
        AnswerAndForget 14y ago
        Who said anything about coolness? Seriously, why do people think that just because all languages are Turing complete, any further discussion is just a popularity contest?
        pbourke 14y ago
        The point is that if you know one of the languages cited by the parent ("C++, Perl, and even PHP"), then you do make your life easier by working with that language rather than choosing one which you don't know. All other things being equal, sure, choose the maximally powerful language in whichever dimension makes sense. But all other things are usually not equal. If you are working on a project by yourself, here are some things which are more important than the characteristics of the language: - your knowledge of the problem domain - your knowledge of general software development - your knowledge of the limits, capabilities and ecosystem of the language (aka project experience) Also, if you're working with others, the following factors are more important than choice of language: - your customer's expectations (if you're shipping software to them) - the ability to recruit experienced individuals for your project - the availability of mentors / reviewers within your organization - the availability of secondary resources (books, FAQ, etc) (edit: formatting)
EdiX 14y ago
Dagdum has been harping on this concept for over a year at this point: "don't waste time talking about your tools, you can do amazing things with everything, go do them". It's a platitude, sometimes it's even the wrong mindset to have, tools do matter. And worse still it's starting to sound hollow given that all dagdum talks about is how you should do awesome stuff instead of talking on the Internet. How about he talks about something cool he did recently instead? I guess that doesn't get him as many page views. At least in this case it is actually correct, unlike previous entries, C++ and Perl are filling two very specific niches perfectly and their obvious shortcomings are the flip side of their strengths.
- kabdib 14y ago
  An ounce of passion is worth a pound of tools. You /can/ do amazing things with limited resources and crappy tools. You have to be careful about this. Using this as a justification not to have good tools ("What's wrong with you? Suffering worked great last time") is bogus logic; there's no reason not to have good tools. The other side of the coin, NOT doing something because you don't have good tools yet, is equally poisonous. - The test team that spends all its time writing test frameworks and tools, and never writing any actual tests. (How many times have I seen this?) - The engineer who spends half his time "optimizing" (finding the perfect language, defragging his hard disks six times a day, tweaking TCP settings so repository access is as fast as possible) and not writing code. - Going around and around on a class design until it's /perfect/. - Not moving on something because you lack complete understanding. It's hard to overstate the benefit of just getting in the ring and doing /something/. After 25 years of random fiddling with one side project [not going to tell you want it is] I finally just started writing some fucking code. And you know, it feels darned good. The stuff I'd been worrying about being inefficient and so forth turned out to be only a few hours of thinking and coding. It was fun. A poor craftsman blames his tools.
  - stcredzero 14y ago
    Productivity is productivity, just like "Power is power." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifaRhL95HUM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifaRhL95HUM http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13003072 http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13003072
reinhardt 14y ago
This amazing, finely crafted software is built despite the handicap of lesser tools, not thanks to them. Which makes the feat of crafting that software even more amazing.
- chubot 14y ago
  Sure but C++ and Perl don't fall in the category of lesser tools. I've worked with both and cursed them both to death. But they achieved crazy popularity for a reason. They are extremely powerful and capable tools. C++ especially can sing in the hands of masters. (And anyone who thinks they mastered C++ in less than 10 years doesn't realize how much more they have to learn. (I mainly curse it because once you have 20 people on a C++ project, there's no hope...)
jiggy2011 14y ago
Do people look down their noses at C++ programmers? If you are using C++ you are probably doing so because you're programming something "closer to the metal" so are probably more likely to know your stuff technically.
- mattgreenrocks 14y ago
  I see a lot of derision aimed at C++ devs -- from both higher and lower level language advocates. On the one side you have the "C was created by God himself, and undefined behavior is expected", and then you have the "languages should be as restrictive as possible because this one time I worked with a developer who was very bad." It's all very tiring. I do mostly Ruby now, and I love how expressive it is. It reminds me a bit of C++ in that regard. It's just funny how the mindset has shifted.
  - _delirium 14y ago
    There is a bit of that, but at least in my circles I more often run across people aiming derision at C++ the language, and the people who are most vituperative are people who have years of C++ dev experience. People who don't program C++ often have mildly negative opinions about it, but something about the language seems to inspire bitter hatred in some percentage of the people who actually have experience in it, in the way one can only hate something you've been intimately familiar with and once may have loved. Yossi Kreinin's scarily thorough "C++ FQA" (http://yosefk.com/c++fqa/ http://yosefk.com/c++fqa/), where he goes through the entire C++ FAQ and criticizes every single point based on years of C++ programming experience, is sort of a paradigmatic example. It reads a little bit like the Unix-Haters Handbook in its depths of familiarity/dislike.
- andrewflnr 14y ago
  A good programmer chooses to use C++ because they're close to the metal. A lot of people just use it because it's their Blub.
  - laichzeit0 14y ago

by 16s 14y ago

pjmlp 14y ago

Very true. While bringing lots of money home, I would add.

konstruktor 14y ago
I remember, but sadly haven't bookmarked, a blog post by a guy who made a fair share of money building a decent music player for BlackBerry when all cool kids were building iPhone apps. Actual needs that will get people to pay money can be quite unhip.

konstruktor 14y ago

And you get a lot of attention for bashing something, which aggravates the problem.

pjscott 14y ago
What problem? You can bash a language without saying anything negative about its users. Not all programming languages are equally good, for any reasonable definition of good. This is a valid thing to discuss.

rbanffy 14y ago

The same can be said about COBOL. Or Visual Basic.

SilasX 14y ago
Or PHP (shudders), which Facebook (for some reason) relies on.
- batista 14y ago
  The "shudder" is against the spirit of the quote you were replying to: "Just because looking down your nose at C++ or Perl is the popular opinion doesn't mean that those languages aren't being used by very smart folks to build amazing, finely crafted software". Ie: don't shudder.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - Locke1689 14y ago
    Simply using a language to build interesting software doesn't make it good.
  - SilasX 14y ago
    I accept that smart people are using C++, Perl, and even PHP, to produce amazing, finely crafted software. I do not accept that they are making it any easier on themselves by this choice of language.
    - pbourke 14y ago
      Isn't it easier to work with the tool that you know thoroughly, which may not be "cool", rather than pick up a new tool in a different ecosystem?
      - AnswerAndForget 14y ago
        Who said anything about coolness? Seriously, why do people think that just because all languages are Turing complete, any further discussion is just a popularity contest?
        pbourke 14y ago
        The point is that if you know one of the languages cited by the parent ("C++, Perl, and even PHP"), then you do make your life easier by working with that language rather than choosing one which you don't know. All other things being equal, sure, choose the maximally powerful language in whichever dimension makes sense. But all other things are usually not equal. If you are working on a project by yourself, here are some things which are more important than the characteristics of the language: - your knowledge of the problem domain - your knowledge of general software development - your knowledge of the limits, capabilities and ecosystem of the language (aka project experience) Also, if you're working with others, the following factors are more important than choice of language: - your customer's expectations (if you're shipping software to them) - the ability to recruit experienced individuals for your project - the availability of mentors / reviewers within your organization - the availability of secondary resources (books, FAQ, etc) (edit: formatting)

EdiX 14y ago

Dagdum has been harping on this concept for over a year at this point: "don't waste time talking about your tools, you can do amazing things with everything, go do them". It's a platitude, sometimes it's even the wrong mindset to have, tools do matter. And worse still it's starting to sound hollow given that all dagdum talks about is how you should do awesome stuff instead of talking on the Internet. How about he talks about something cool he did recently instead? I guess that doesn't get him as many page views. At least in this case it is actually correct, unlike previous entries, C++ and Perl are filling two very specific niches perfectly and their obvious shortcomings are the flip side of their strengths.

kabdib 14y ago
An ounce of passion is worth a pound of tools. You /can/ do amazing things with limited resources and crappy tools. You have to be careful about this. Using this as a justification not to have good tools ("What's wrong with you? Suffering worked great last time") is bogus logic; there's no reason not to have good tools. The other side of the coin, NOT doing something because you don't have good tools yet, is equally poisonous. - The test team that spends all its time writing test frameworks and tools, and never writing any actual tests. (How many times have I seen this?) - The engineer who spends half his time "optimizing" (finding the perfect language, defragging his hard disks six times a day, tweaking TCP settings so repository access is as fast as possible) and not writing code. - Going around and around on a class design until it's /perfect/. - Not moving on something because you lack complete understanding. It's hard to overstate the benefit of just getting in the ring and doing /something/. After 25 years of random fiddling with one side project [not going to tell you want it is] I finally just started writing some fucking code. And you know, it feels darned good. The stuff I'd been worrying about being inefficient and so forth turned out to be only a few hours of thinking and coding. It was fun. A poor craftsman blames his tools.
- stcredzero 14y ago
  Productivity is productivity, just like "Power is power." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifaRhL95HUM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifaRhL95HUM http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13003072 http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13003072

reinhardt 14y ago

This amazing, finely crafted software is built despite the handicap of lesser tools, not thanks to them. Which makes the feat of crafting that software even more amazing.

chubot 14y ago
Sure but C++ and Perl don't fall in the category of lesser tools. I've worked with both and cursed them both to death. But they achieved crazy popularity for a reason. They are extremely powerful and capable tools. C++ especially can sing in the hands of masters. (And anyone who thinks they mastered C++ in less than 10 years doesn't realize how much more they have to learn. (I mainly curse it because once you have 20 people on a C++ project, there's no hope...)

jiggy2011 14y ago

Do people look down their noses at C++ programmers? If you are using C++ you are probably doing so because you're programming something "closer to the metal" so are probably more likely to know your stuff technically.

mattgreenrocks 14y ago
I see a lot of derision aimed at C++ devs -- from both higher and lower level language advocates. On the one side you have the "C was created by God himself, and undefined behavior is expected", and then you have the "languages should be as restrictive as possible because this one time I worked with a developer who was very bad." It's all very tiring. I do mostly Ruby now, and I love how expressive it is. It reminds me a bit of C++ in that regard. It's just funny how the mindset has shifted.
- _delirium 14y ago
  There is a bit of that, but at least in my circles I more often run across people aiming derision at C++ the language, and the people who are most vituperative are people who have years of C++ dev experience. People who don't program C++ often have mildly negative opinions about it, but something about the language seems to inspire bitter hatred in some percentage of the people who actually have experience in it, in the way one can only hate something you've been intimately familiar with and once may have loved. Yossi Kreinin's scarily thorough "C++ FQA" (http://yosefk.com/c++fqa/ http://yosefk.com/c++fqa/), where he goes through the entire C++ FAQ and criticizes every single point based on years of C++ programming experience, is sort of a paradigmatic example. It reads a little bit like the Unix-Haters Handbook in its depths of familiarity/dislike.
andrewflnr 14y ago
A good programmer chooses to use C++ because they're close to the metal. A lot of people just use it because it's their Blub.
- laichzeit0 14y ago