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Reading de Gaulle's book makes you wonder how politicians became what they are today, it's as if they lost 50iq points and became business owners instead of wor

Reading de Gaulle's book makes you wonder how politicians became what they are today, it's as if they lost 50iq points and became business owners instead of world leaders

cocacola1 2y ago
Wouldn’t it be the fact that he lived through a couple World Wars and had his country invaded by Nazis?
- jajko 2y ago
  Hardships build strong men etc. Yes for sure, but thats not enough. Otherwise we would see a lot of similar moral leaders ie in Africa or South America and reality is very different, isn't it.
  - wqaatwt 2y ago
    De Gaulle was a general not a politician, though. Until he went to England instead of surrendering like most other French generals and politicians. Not exactly a career path that’s easy to follow in any stable western country. You can’t really just jump from the military to government regardless of how capable and qualified you are.
    - fakedang 2y ago
      Back in his time, it used to be the norm though. Douglas MacArthur and Eisenhower come to mind. Even today, a not-insignificant number of US reps and congressmen are people who have served in the military. Same goes for Singapore, India and Indonesia (if we're going by stable democracies). I think Europe is an exception to the norm, even if there are some cases (like the current Czech President).
      - wqaatwt 2y ago
        > t used to be the norm though. Yes as a consequence of WW2 not before (outside of other major wars) or currently. I’m not saying that there is anything wrong or particularly strange about a former officer or general standing for office. But it’s not quite the same, de Gaulle, Eisenhower and (to some extent McArthur) were pretty much slingshotted to the top because of who they were and what they did during the war. They skipped all the traditional steps and “filters” that most politicians have to pass and had huge amounts of political capital. That doesn’t really happen during peacetime in stable countries. e.g. US had 5 presidents which didn’t hold any elected office before becoming president: 3 of them (Taylor, Grant, Eisenhower) directly leveraged their success as military commanders during major wars to get elected, Hoover was a cabinet secretary for 8 years so he barely counts and the last one is Trump.
    - pyrale 2y ago
      > De Gaulle was a general not a politician, though. He was both, as were many generals of the 3rd republic.
      - shakow 2y ago
        > He was both He absolutely was not pre-WWII. > as were many generals of the 3rd republic. He was not a general during the 3rd, safe for its last few months.
        pyrale 2y ago
        > He absolutely was not pre-WWII. How do you suggest he suddenly appeared in a government in 1940? De Gaulle had been in contact with Paul Reynaud since 1936. He was also in contact with several other high-ranking politicians, and actively trying to convince them to support his ideas on reshaping the army.
  - meiraleal 2y ago
    > Otherwise we would see a lot of similar moral leaders ie in Africa or South America Oh you would be surprised. Check the assassinated/persecuted/encarcerated leaders for going against Western interests. Some that comes to mind: Haile Selassie, Gaddafi or Fidel Castro speeches at the UN.
    - rrr_oh_man 2y ago
      Gaddafi was a fascinating rabbit hole. Tried to create a pan-African currency backed by gold, French government intervened with backing of NATO, a whole region with millions of people was pushed into misery. Thanks!
- lm28469 2y ago
  Yeah I imagine it forges you better than business schools, 90% of french politics come from two schools, they more or less all have the same background, and then they rotate between government jobs for a few decades before finishing in the private sector
skywal_l 2y ago
To be fair, most of the politicians of his time were inept too. Look at the story of the fourth republic. Full of private interest lobbyists and party machinist.
- lm28469 2y ago
  Oh yes sure, but you had at least some of them who were both successful and caring for the long term state of their country. Today wherever you look, at least in France, you see the same self serving behaviours Ironically they all call themselves "Gaullists", even though none of them are, but since it is the benchmark of what a leader should be they all defaults to that term. I think de Gaulle's legacy explains why France hasn't completely collapsed yet (only country in EU with the atom bomb, country with the highest % of nuclear in its energy mix, a decent army), all of it is slowly crumbling away of course
  - pyrale 2y ago
    > I think de Gaulle's legacy explains why France hasn't completely collapsed yet The 5th republic presidential system, which we owe to De Gaulle, is a large part of the issues we have, though. > country with the highest % of nuclear in its energy mix Civilian nuclear happened after his departure, though. If anything, De Gaulle's fierce protectionism had pushed the french civilian nuclear industry to pursue homegrown graphite-gaz tech, which was a dead-end technologically, as the Brits eventually found out. De Gaulle's departure opened the way to importing Westinghouse-designed reactors which were a success.
    - mytailorisrich 2y ago
      > The 5th republic presidential system, which we owe to De Gaulle, is a large part of the issues we have, though. The current political issues are caused by a lack of majority in parliament. So arguably this is really the one scenario the "Presidential system" cannot be blamed for.
      - pyrale 2y ago
tdb7893 2y ago
You still see politicians step up today, especially in times of war. I also wonder how much a modern media environment manufacturs or amplifies flaws of politicians, I once met someone in person who was convinced that Obama hated veterans.
- lm28469 2y ago
  24/7 news certainly plays a role, as well as independent media, it's much easier to control your image when you have a few newspapers and a few tv stations that are public or owned by friends. I still believe people like Macron, Scholz, Trump or Biden look like absolute buffoons, for different reasons, compared to the average leaders of the last 50 years
- gregw2 2y ago
  Did Giuliani actually step up after 9/11, or did he just read Churchill bedside (as was reported at the time) and imitated what he didn't have? I used to give him the benefit of the doubt on the above question, but based on the last decade of his actions reported in the press, I'm less clear. There is stepping up, and then appearing to step up. Which would a politician be best at? Or is it the press as you say... the press ignoring things in situations that require unity, and reporting bad things in comfortable times when people are jockeying and its time to get clicks/views...
hackandthink 2y ago
De Gaulle was a cool guy. He was afraid of no one. "After Washington rebuffed his proposal to overhaul the Western alliance and once he ended the war in Algeria, de Gaulle launched a forceful attack on what he called the "American protectorate." The West's nuclear strategy, the structure of NATO, and West German dependence on Washington were only some of the issues that fell subject to Gaullist revisionism" https://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft4w10060w&chunk.id=d0e3081&toc.depth=1&toc.id=&brand=ucpress https://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft4w10...
- monadINtop 2y ago
  Yeah it was so cool when he oversaw the torture and arbitrary detainment of Algerian civilians in a desperate attempt to crush the revolutionary movement.
  - hackandthink 2y ago
    Sure you are right. But he saved France from the coup generals and was responsible for the withdrawal of the French from Algeria. In the summer I saw the Algeria memorial on the Seine, in France they still have a problem with the colonial crimes in Algeria.
    - monadINtop 2y ago
      It was a brutal occupation and while I obviously don't hold some kind of personal resentment to the decedents (whether institutionally or literally) of this colonial state, I think its hard for the well meaning public in these countries to understand the effect of this kind of soft whitewashing (even if unintentional) of the historical record has to those of us who have these conflicts burned in our living memory, and are in all ways still living within the direct repercussions of these conflicts. Maybe it is easier for some when they can view it from a distance, I see many who grasp the severity of say, the Japanese state's indifference to their imperial war crimes which still causes immense tension with their neighbors, or the denial of the Armenian Genocide by Turks and so on. It's a shame that such indignation rarely is maintained for systems that one may be far more complicit, and consequently far more able to rectify.
aucisson_masque 2y ago
De gaule was part of the exception, most politicians have always been cowards but some were also resistant and got jailed during ww2 by Vichy or joined de gaule.
OJFord 2y ago
It's the media and common populace that (1) has a lower IQ (democracy more widely accessible) encouraging talking down; and (2) demands that muppets have equal opportunity to enter politics as the well-educated élite. We could give multiples higher salary to MPs, stack the commons with the best Cambridge, Oxford, Imperial, LSE, etc. have to offer ... but you can't do that, because matey earning a living wage or whatever already thinks they're grossly overpaid and that extra income besides their MP salary should be illegal - when a software engineer could earn more. So woman of the people who left school at sixteen to work retail gets his vote, that's who we need in power, not these educated toffs.
- wbl 2y ago
  A college dropout from Missouri did pretty well as US president.
  - Philpax 2y ago
    (For those not acquainted with the Presidents, this is referring to Truman.)
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - OJFord 2y ago
    Fantastic. Have to go in order to drop out though don't you. On average someone who dropped out is going to perform worse than the best graduates. I didn't proffer any hard rules.
lo_zamoyski 2y ago
Plato has the answer in the Republic. Since de Gaulle (or before de Gaulle), we’ve passed from timocracy, in which honor is the highest motivating value, to oligarchy, in which love of money and avarice replace honor. We’re now passing into democracy in which all desires are given equal importance, and a preoccupation with base and even depraved appetites dominates.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

Reading de Gaulle's book makes you wonder how politicians became what they are today, it's as if they lost 50iq points and became business owners instead of world leaders

cocacola1 2y ago

Wouldn’t it be the fact that he lived through a couple World Wars and had his country invaded by Nazis?

jajko 2y ago
Hardships build strong men etc. Yes for sure, but thats not enough. Otherwise we would see a lot of similar moral leaders ie in Africa or South America and reality is very different, isn't it.
- wqaatwt 2y ago
  De Gaulle was a general not a politician, though. Until he went to England instead of surrendering like most other French generals and politicians. Not exactly a career path that’s easy to follow in any stable western country. You can’t really just jump from the military to government regardless of how capable and qualified you are.
  - fakedang 2y ago
    Back in his time, it used to be the norm though. Douglas MacArthur and Eisenhower come to mind. Even today, a not-insignificant number of US reps and congressmen are people who have served in the military. Same goes for Singapore, India and Indonesia (if we're going by stable democracies). I think Europe is an exception to the norm, even if there are some cases (like the current Czech President).
    - wqaatwt 2y ago
      > t used to be the norm though. Yes as a consequence of WW2 not before (outside of other major wars) or currently. I’m not saying that there is anything wrong or particularly strange about a former officer or general standing for office. But it’s not quite the same, de Gaulle, Eisenhower and (to some extent McArthur) were pretty much slingshotted to the top because of who they were and what they did during the war. They skipped all the traditional steps and “filters” that most politicians have to pass and had huge amounts of political capital. That doesn’t really happen during peacetime in stable countries. e.g. US had 5 presidents which didn’t hold any elected office before becoming president: 3 of them (Taylor, Grant, Eisenhower) directly leveraged their success as military commanders during major wars to get elected, Hoover was a cabinet secretary for 8 years so he barely counts and the last one is Trump.
  - pyrale 2y ago
    > De Gaulle was a general not a politician, though. He was both, as were many generals of the 3rd republic.
    - shakow 2y ago
      > He was both He absolutely was not pre-WWII. > as were many generals of the 3rd republic. He was not a general during the 3rd, safe for its last few months.
      - pyrale 2y ago
        > He absolutely was not pre-WWII. How do you suggest he suddenly appeared in a government in 1940? De Gaulle had been in contact with Paul Reynaud since 1936. He was also in contact with several other high-ranking politicians, and actively trying to convince them to support his ideas on reshaping the army.
- meiraleal 2y ago
  > Otherwise we would see a lot of similar moral leaders ie in Africa or South America Oh you would be surprised. Check the assassinated/persecuted/encarcerated leaders for going against Western interests. Some that comes to mind: Haile Selassie, Gaddafi or Fidel Castro speeches at the UN.
  - rrr_oh_man 2y ago
    Gaddafi was a fascinating rabbit hole. Tried to create a pan-African currency backed by gold, French government intervened with backing of NATO, a whole region with millions of people was pushed into misery. Thanks!
lm28469 2y ago
Yeah I imagine it forges you better than business schools, 90% of french politics come from two schools, they more or less all have the same background, and then they rotate between government jobs for a few decades before finishing in the private sector

skywal_l 2y ago

To be fair, most of the politicians of his time were inept too. Look at the story of the fourth republic. Full of private interest lobbyists and party machinist.

lm28469 2y ago
Oh yes sure, but you had at least some of them who were both successful and caring for the long term state of their country. Today wherever you look, at least in France, you see the same self serving behaviours Ironically they all call themselves "Gaullists", even though none of them are, but since it is the benchmark of what a leader should be they all defaults to that term. I think de Gaulle's legacy explains why France hasn't completely collapsed yet (only country in EU with the atom bomb, country with the highest % of nuclear in its energy mix, a decent army), all of it is slowly crumbling away of course
- pyrale 2y ago
  > I think de Gaulle's legacy explains why France hasn't completely collapsed yet The 5th republic presidential system, which we owe to De Gaulle, is a large part of the issues we have, though. > country with the highest % of nuclear in its energy mix Civilian nuclear happened after his departure, though. If anything, De Gaulle's fierce protectionism had pushed the french civilian nuclear industry to pursue homegrown graphite-gaz tech, which was a dead-end technologically, as the Brits eventually found out. De Gaulle's departure opened the way to importing Westinghouse-designed reactors which were a success.
  - mytailorisrich 2y ago
    > The 5th republic presidential system, which we owe to De Gaulle, is a large part of the issues we have, though. The current political issues are caused by a lack of majority in parliament. So arguably this is really the one scenario the "Presidential system" cannot be blamed for.
    - pyrale 2y ago

tdb7893 2y ago

You still see politicians step up today, especially in times of war. I also wonder how much a modern media environment manufacturs or amplifies flaws of politicians, I once met someone in person who was convinced that Obama hated veterans.

lm28469 2y ago
24/7 news certainly plays a role, as well as independent media, it's much easier to control your image when you have a few newspapers and a few tv stations that are public or owned by friends. I still believe people like Macron, Scholz, Trump or Biden look like absolute buffoons, for different reasons, compared to the average leaders of the last 50 years
gregw2 2y ago
Did Giuliani actually step up after 9/11, or did he just read Churchill bedside (as was reported at the time) and imitated what he didn't have? I used to give him the benefit of the doubt on the above question, but based on the last decade of his actions reported in the press, I'm less clear. There is stepping up, and then appearing to step up. Which would a politician be best at? Or is it the press as you say... the press ignoring things in situations that require unity, and reporting bad things in comfortable times when people are jockeying and its time to get clicks/views...

hackandthink 2y ago

De Gaulle was a cool guy. He was afraid of no one. "After Washington rebuffed his proposal to overhaul the Western alliance and once he ended the war in Algeria, de Gaulle launched a forceful attack on what he called the "American protectorate." The West's nuclear strategy, the structure of NATO, and West German dependence on Washington were only some of the issues that fell subject to Gaullist revisionism" https://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft4w10060w&chunk.id=d0e3081&toc.depth=1&toc.id=&brand=ucpress https://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft4w10...

monadINtop 2y ago
Yeah it was so cool when he oversaw the torture and arbitrary detainment of Algerian civilians in a desperate attempt to crush the revolutionary movement.
- hackandthink 2y ago
  Sure you are right. But he saved France from the coup generals and was responsible for the withdrawal of the French from Algeria. In the summer I saw the Algeria memorial on the Seine, in France they still have a problem with the colonial crimes in Algeria.
  - monadINtop 2y ago
    It was a brutal occupation and while I obviously don't hold some kind of personal resentment to the decedents (whether institutionally or literally) of this colonial state, I think its hard for the well meaning public in these countries to understand the effect of this kind of soft whitewashing (even if unintentional) of the historical record has to those of us who have these conflicts burned in our living memory, and are in all ways still living within the direct repercussions of these conflicts. Maybe it is easier for some when they can view it from a distance, I see many who grasp the severity of say, the Japanese state's indifference to their imperial war crimes which still causes immense tension with their neighbors, or the denial of the Armenian Genocide by Turks and so on. It's a shame that such indignation rarely is maintained for systems that one may be far more complicit, and consequently far more able to rectify.

aucisson_masque 2y ago

De gaule was part of the exception, most politicians have always been cowards but some were also resistant and got jailed during ww2 by Vichy or joined de gaule.

OJFord 2y ago

It's the media and common populace that (1) has a lower IQ (democracy more widely accessible) encouraging talking down; and (2) demands that muppets have equal opportunity to enter politics as the well-educated élite. We could give multiples higher salary to MPs, stack the commons with the best Cambridge, Oxford, Imperial, LSE, etc. have to offer ... but you can't do that, because matey earning a living wage or whatever already thinks they're grossly overpaid and that extra income besides their MP salary should be illegal - when a software engineer could earn more. So woman of the people who left school at sixteen to work retail gets his vote, that's who we need in power, not these educated toffs.

wbl 2y ago
A college dropout from Missouri did pretty well as US president.
- Philpax 2y ago
  (For those not acquainted with the Presidents, this is referring to Truman.)
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- OJFord 2y ago
  Fantastic. Have to go in order to drop out though don't you. On average someone who dropped out is going to perform worse than the best graduates. I didn't proffer any hard rules.

lo_zamoyski 2y ago

Plato has the answer in the Republic. Since de Gaulle (or before de Gaulle), we’ve passed from timocracy, in which honor is the highest motivating value, to oligarchy, in which love of money and avarice replace honor. We’re now passing into democracy in which all desires are given equal importance, and a preoccupation with base and even depraved appetites dominates.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]