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"American torpedoes utilized 180-proof ethyl alcohol as fuel for the miniature steam engines that drove them toward their targets." I wonder if this was by des

by m463 2y ago

"American torpedoes utilized 180-proof ethyl alcohol as fuel for the miniature steam engines that drove them toward their targets." I wonder if this was by design ... I think isopropyl alcohol is probably generally available/popular only because it is not drinkable.

ethbr1 2y ago
Apparently modern US production ratios for ethyl vs isopropyl alcohols are roughly 100:1. Expect they would have been the same during the war era, hence engineering torpedos to run on a more widely available fuel.
- lazide 2y ago
  It’s currently that way because of ethanol in fuel correct? It seems unlikely it would have been that way during WW2?
cyberax 2y ago
Ethyl alcohol is _cheap_. You literally need just a bunch of sugar, yeast, and a still. Straightforward, low-tech, and safe. Isopropyl alcohol needs to be synthesized from acetone, which itself is synthesized.
- kleton 2y ago
  Acetone–butanol–ethanol fermentation was itself a critical WWI technology, as cordite required acetone. That fermentation process requires only sugars and an acetobutylicum strain. The first president of Israel developed this process.
  - pfdietz 2y ago
    Yes, Chaim Weizmann. When was this supplanted by the cumene process? EDIT: this process was developed from 1939-1945. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumene_process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumene_process https://shop.tarjomeplus.com/UploadFileEn/TPLUS_EN_2421.pdf https://shop.tarjomeplus.com/UploadFileEn/TPLUS_EN_2421.pdf BTW, isopropyl alcohol is industrially produced from propylene, not acetone.
- lupusreal 2y ago
  I don't know how the balance broke down during WW2, but synthesis of ethanol from ethylene in more recent times is economically competitive with fermentation. So for instance, fermentation of sugarcane is easily cheaper in Brazil, but in America most industrial ethanol came from synthesis until corn subsidies were introduced in the 80s which made fermentation cheaper than synthesis.
  - pfdietz 2y ago
    The US has ample ethane now (it's abundant in much fracked gas) so I suspect this synthesized ethanol would be superior here without the corn subsidies.
- HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
  A 50lb bag of cracked corn is about $12 at Tractor Supply. I've considered making my own moonshine just for the hell of it. Might actually get around to it one of these days.
n8henrie 2y ago
Isopropyl is drinkable (and highly intoxicating). Just very unpleasant to drink and highly irritating to the mucosa.
- RajT88 2y ago
  If I recall correctly, a politician's wife back in the 80's was hospitalized for drinking isopropyl. (Just looked it up on Wikipedia - I recall correctly)
  - class700 2y ago
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1989/11/09/dukakis-ingested-rubbing-alcohol/aa98f03d-63e9-4486-9089-4387a1243b0e/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1989/11/09/... Kitty Dukakis
  - n8henrie 2y ago
    You can be hospitalized for drinking too much ethanol, or too much water. Are those not drinkable? I'm an ER physician. I have worked in a poison control center. I take care of the people that drink IPA. I work on the Navajo Native American reservation, where this isn't terribly uncommon.
- ryandvm 2y ago
  "When it comes to drinking rubbing alcohol, the digestive tract suffers the most, even when only swallowing a small amount. The body metabolizes these extremely high alcohol levels into acetone. If consumed to intoxication, the substance can lead to organ damage. Because it's a central nervous system depressant, side effects can include dizziness, headaches and inebriation. Because it's a gastrointestinal irritant, it can cause nausea, abdominal pain and vomiting blood. In addition, "due to having a higher molecular weight than ethanol, isopropanol, is more intoxicating than ethanol and can produce an altered sensorium, hypotension, hypothermia, and even cardiopulmonary collapse. Hypotension is associated with severe overdose and related to a mortality rate of nearly 45 percent," according to the National Center for Biotechnology Information (NCBI). I am not sure I would call that "drinkable", unless you just mean it will physically go down your gullet.
theophrastus 2y ago
What was the source of the oxygen to maintain ethyl alcohol combustion in a sealed WWII torpedo?
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  Compressed air. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torpedo#Wet-heater https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torpedo#Wet-heater

by m463 2y ago

ethbr1 2y ago

Apparently modern US production ratios for ethyl vs isopropyl alcohols are roughly 100:1. Expect they would have been the same during the war era, hence engineering torpedos to run on a more widely available fuel.

lazide 2y ago
It’s currently that way because of ethanol in fuel correct? It seems unlikely it would have been that way during WW2?

cyberax 2y ago

Ethyl alcohol is _cheap_. You literally need just a bunch of sugar, yeast, and a still. Straightforward, low-tech, and safe. Isopropyl alcohol needs to be synthesized from acetone, which itself is synthesized.

kleton 2y ago
Acetone–butanol–ethanol fermentation was itself a critical WWI technology, as cordite required acetone. That fermentation process requires only sugars and an acetobutylicum strain. The first president of Israel developed this process.
- pfdietz 2y ago
  Yes, Chaim Weizmann. When was this supplanted by the cumene process? EDIT: this process was developed from 1939-1945. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumene_process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumene_process https://shop.tarjomeplus.com/UploadFileEn/TPLUS_EN_2421.pdf https://shop.tarjomeplus.com/UploadFileEn/TPLUS_EN_2421.pdf BTW, isopropyl alcohol is industrially produced from propylene, not acetone.
lupusreal 2y ago
I don't know how the balance broke down during WW2, but synthesis of ethanol from ethylene in more recent times is economically competitive with fermentation. So for instance, fermentation of sugarcane is easily cheaper in Brazil, but in America most industrial ethanol came from synthesis until corn subsidies were introduced in the 80s which made fermentation cheaper than synthesis.
- pfdietz 2y ago
  The US has ample ethane now (it's abundant in much fracked gas) so I suspect this synthesized ethanol would be superior here without the corn subsidies.
HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
A 50lb bag of cracked corn is about $12 at Tractor Supply. I've considered making my own moonshine just for the hell of it. Might actually get around to it one of these days.

n8henrie 2y ago

Isopropyl is drinkable (and highly intoxicating). Just very unpleasant to drink and highly irritating to the mucosa.

RajT88 2y ago
If I recall correctly, a politician's wife back in the 80's was hospitalized for drinking isopropyl. (Just looked it up on Wikipedia - I recall correctly)
- class700 2y ago
  https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1989/11/09/dukakis-ingested-rubbing-alcohol/aa98f03d-63e9-4486-9089-4387a1243b0e/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1989/11/09/... Kitty Dukakis
- n8henrie 2y ago
  You can be hospitalized for drinking too much ethanol, or too much water. Are those not drinkable? I'm an ER physician. I have worked in a poison control center. I take care of the people that drink IPA. I work on the Navajo Native American reservation, where this isn't terribly uncommon.
ryandvm 2y ago
"When it comes to drinking rubbing alcohol, the digestive tract suffers the most, even when only swallowing a small amount. The body metabolizes these extremely high alcohol levels into acetone. If consumed to intoxication, the substance can lead to organ damage. Because it's a central nervous system depressant, side effects can include dizziness, headaches and inebriation. Because it's a gastrointestinal irritant, it can cause nausea, abdominal pain and vomiting blood. In addition, "due to having a higher molecular weight than ethanol, isopropanol, is more intoxicating than ethanol and can produce an altered sensorium, hypotension, hypothermia, and even cardiopulmonary collapse. Hypotension is associated with severe overdose and related to a mortality rate of nearly 45 percent," according to the National Center for Biotechnology Information (NCBI). I am not sure I would call that "drinkable", unless you just mean it will physically go down your gullet.

theophrastus 2y ago

What was the source of the oxygen to maintain ethyl alcohol combustion in a sealed WWII torpedo?

ceejayoz 2y ago
Compressed air. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torpedo#Wet-heater https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torpedo#Wet-heater