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I've heard this many times already, why don't you back that up with a serious study that proves the reason young adults don't want kids is to, quote "travel, pa

I've heard this many times already, why don't you back that up with a serious study that proves the reason young adults don't want kids is to, quote "travel, party and drink"? And if it's not an economical issue, what are we to do? Force people to have children? Artificial insemination?

vl 2y ago
Why don’t you back up your point with a study? This is just silly argument to make in discussion. OP presented coherent viewpoint, and asking “for a study” is a simple way to derail any discussion.
- thrance 2y ago
  No, OP presented a right wing talking point that I am tired of seeing repeated ad nauseam and that is never justified. I feel justified in calling out the obvious lack of evidence to their narrativisation of the issue.
  - asdasdsddd 2y ago
    No its the policy bros who have to justify this one because all the evidence shows that your ancestors had 2-4 times more babies despite having less time, energy, money, child care resources, or education which are all areas that "fertility policy" tries to address. The only counterpoint is that farmers need children to continue the farm. But thats a bad argument because urban fertility rates were also much higher compared to now.
    - thrance 2y ago
      You might want to learn about the "demographic transition". If it really is only about culture, what do you suggest we should do? Ban contraception? Require women to have at least two babies each? Endoctrinate the youth into wanting to have children? I can't think of a single thing that is not f'd up.
      - asdasdsddd 2y ago
        The models pretty much say its NOT about policy, but its about the conditions from which cultural values arise from. I don't even know what you are arguing about, did I make a single normative statement in my original post.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
tokioyoyo 2y ago
OP might be simplifying it, but changing values (shift towards individualism across the globe) and women's freedom of choice are one of the biggest reasons why people don't want to have kids across all researches that have been done. Cost of living, job security and etc. contribute as well, but it really just doesn't make any sense to have more than 2 kids, other than "for having a lot of kids" sake. And two children is less than replacement level. Also, as childless/1 child families grow old and retire, they kind of show how it's ok to live a fulfilling life without going through arduous pregnancy and etc. I'm not even talking about sacrificing minimum of 6 years of your life (pregnancy + first year of the child) to raise 3 kids. Culturally it's not celebrated anymore, you lose out on career progression, and since others in your age groups aren't having kids, you feel left out. These are very real problems that no government has been able to solve yet. The worse it gets, people will feel more guilty for prescribing their future child to a life that was worse than theirs. And the cycle continues.
- thrance 2y ago
  The issue I take with OP's point is that I'm pretty sure I heard Jordan Peterson or JD Vance use the exact same words "travel, party, drink" and use it to justify some heinous stuff like stripping women of their reproductive rights. I'm tired of seeing it repeated thoughtlessly with no critical thinking whatsoever. I believe if a government really thinks fertility rates are an issue, the only think it should do is make it materially easier for citizens that want kids but can't to have them. Any other policy I can think of feels incredibly authoritarian.
  - tokioyoyo 2y ago
    Well, yes, I agree. But every government will try random things, and when it gets tough, they’ll take on the draconian measures. It’ll be interesting to watch China, South Korea and Japan in the next decade. Most governments are trying to see how they get out of this hole, and copy their implementations. I have no idea how they can fix it without rolling back contraceptives or women’s rights. I don’t think it’s going to be pretty. And the whole “travel, party, drink” isn’t as morally insulting as it used to be before. I think a good chunk of people in their 20s would wear that as a badge of pride, rather than whatever they’re trying to imply.

vl 2y ago

Why don’t you back up your point with a study? This is just silly argument to make in discussion. OP presented coherent viewpoint, and asking “for a study” is a simple way to derail any discussion.

thrance 2y ago
No, OP presented a right wing talking point that I am tired of seeing repeated ad nauseam and that is never justified. I feel justified in calling out the obvious lack of evidence to their narrativisation of the issue.
- asdasdsddd 2y ago
  No its the policy bros who have to justify this one because all the evidence shows that your ancestors had 2-4 times more babies despite having less time, energy, money, child care resources, or education which are all areas that "fertility policy" tries to address. The only counterpoint is that farmers need children to continue the farm. But thats a bad argument because urban fertility rates were also much higher compared to now.
  - thrance 2y ago
    You might want to learn about the "demographic transition". If it really is only about culture, what do you suggest we should do? Ban contraception? Require women to have at least two babies each? Endoctrinate the youth into wanting to have children? I can't think of a single thing that is not f'd up.
    - asdasdsddd 2y ago
      The models pretty much say its NOT about policy, but its about the conditions from which cultural values arise from. I don't even know what you are arguing about, did I make a single normative statement in my original post.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]

tokioyoyo 2y ago

OP might be simplifying it, but changing values (shift towards individualism across the globe) and women's freedom of choice are one of the biggest reasons why people don't want to have kids across all researches that have been done. Cost of living, job security and etc. contribute as well, but it really just doesn't make any sense to have more than 2 kids, other than "for having a lot of kids" sake. And two children is less than replacement level. Also, as childless/1 child families grow old and retire, they kind of show how it's ok to live a fulfilling life without going through arduous pregnancy and etc. I'm not even talking about sacrificing minimum of 6 years of your life (pregnancy + first year of the child) to raise 3 kids. Culturally it's not celebrated anymore, you lose out on career progression, and since others in your age groups aren't having kids, you feel left out. These are very real problems that no government has been able to solve yet. The worse it gets, people will feel more guilty for prescribing their future child to a life that was worse than theirs. And the cycle continues.

thrance 2y ago
The issue I take with OP's point is that I'm pretty sure I heard Jordan Peterson or JD Vance use the exact same words "travel, party, drink" and use it to justify some heinous stuff like stripping women of their reproductive rights. I'm tired of seeing it repeated thoughtlessly with no critical thinking whatsoever. I believe if a government really thinks fertility rates are an issue, the only think it should do is make it materially easier for citizens that want kids but can't to have them. Any other policy I can think of feels incredibly authoritarian.
- tokioyoyo 2y ago
  Well, yes, I agree. But every government will try random things, and when it gets tough, they’ll take on the draconian measures. It’ll be interesting to watch China, South Korea and Japan in the next decade. Most governments are trying to see how they get out of this hole, and copy their implementations. I have no idea how they can fix it without rolling back contraceptives or women’s rights. I don’t think it’s going to be pretty. And the whole “travel, party, drink” isn’t as morally insulting as it used to be before. I think a good chunk of people in their 20s would wear that as a badge of pride, rather than whatever they’re trying to imply.