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If society ever developed along the lines proposed, which is highly improbable to begin with, then speaking of humanity as a whole is a complete nonstarter. We

If society ever developed along the lines proposed, which is highly improbable to begin with, then speaking of humanity as a whole is a complete nonstarter. We'd naturally fork, because that future sounds like a dystopic hellscape to many (if not the overwhelming majority). And indeed once we reach the point of being able to reliably colonize other planets, large scale splintering (both physical and cultural) will begin near immediately. You'll have libertarian planet, Islamic planet, even the Mormons will finally have their planets! And so on. And the people who want to sacrifice their bodies to go enter the machine will certainly have their own little slice of the universe as well.

383toast 2y ago
getting splintered metaverses seem way more feasible than splintered physical planets
- elzbardico 2y ago
  Then you get a Chicxulub and it is all over.
- jerf 2y ago
  You have to have everyone go into the splintered metaverses to avoid physical expansion. Everyone. Every biological body. Every AI. Every AI written for the specific purpose of having a long enough time horizon to settle new locations physically. Even the AIs written specifically to marshal together the physical resources to build more metaverse computing power. Even the AIs and fiesty biological bodies who one way or another end up with a 100% bias towards physical reality. Even the many, many beings who will quite accurately observe that no matter how short-term appealing this is a long-term loss. Even the beings who specifically want to be the ones in charge of the physical machinery and see an advantage to continuing to expand it. Every. Last. Being. I don't think this degree of uniformity is plausible. I reject this as an explanation for the Fermi paradox for similar reasons, except they're even more relevant across all of the putatively common alien civilizations. I don't even find it plausible that all of human civilization would do this, let alone all of every civilization ever.
  - ANewFormation 2y ago
    I couldn't agree more, but with one exception. I tend to heavily indulge the simulation hypothesis, but the nuance here being that it's not necessarily just an arbitrarily simulated complete reality. Our lives do an unbelievably good job of teaching us endless unteachable lessons. What if life as we know it is, for instance, little more than a day's lesson in another reality? Or a day of a gaming? Perhaps a test of character for some sort of role? There's no reason to assume time, and life expectancy as we know it, are universal truths. Even within our own reality the rate of the passage of time is variable. The only problem I have with the simulation hypothesis is it being turtles all the way down. Imagine you pass from this world only to 'awake' in another. How does the exact same simulation argument not just apply yet again? It seems fundamentally unfalsifiable and circular, but I suppose that is standard for any explanation of life.
    - c22 2y ago
      I believe this is actually one of the strongest arguments for the simulation hypothesis. If simulated worlds are possible then there are almost certainly more simulated worlds than non-simulated worlds (of which there can only be one) so therefore the odds of existing in a simulated variety are never less than half and likely much higher or else simulated worlds cannot exist with enough fidelity to remain undetected.
      - dpassens 2y ago
        I think the last part is the problem with this argument. We can already simulate worlds (Minecraft), they're just very different from our own. It has to be possible to actually simulate our universe. Not just theoretically, but also practically: Someone needs to have enough energy, time, engineering ability, other resources, and enough motivation¹ to run the simulation. Also, if you permit me to get spiritual for a moment, I believe that it could be theoretically possible to simulate any fully materialist universe, but I'm not convinced consciousness can arise from doing maths. Since I am conscious, this universe must not be simulated, no matter how many simulated worlds actually exist. [1] I'm assuming that most creatures intelligent enough to understand the concept of simulating a universe will want to try it. But if it takes an entire civilization to do so and that civilization has to choose between, say, spending the energy on simulation running or on food production, it's pretty clear what will happen.
UltraSane 2y ago
In the excellent very hard sci-fi novel Diaspora by Greg Egan humanity has split into 3 main branches that don't really trust each other much. biological humans, which are subdivided into various genetically altered varieties and the original unmodified humans. nuclear powered humanoid robots that are not allowed on earth but are perfect for working in space. fully simulated humans being run on nuclear powered computers buried deep underground for security. Their minds run 700 times faster than normal humans. This feels pretty plausible to me.
meiraleal 2y ago
Can't wait for the Rastafari planet
selimthegrim 2y ago
>even the Mormons will finally have their planets I can’t remember if this was in the Heinlein novel, but in the film the director was certainly having a go at this when that planet was the one to get attacked
- ANewFormation 2y ago
  The Expanse also had fun with this bit. It's a nice little easter egg because I think most people think Mormonism is just another typical Christian branch.
- selimthegrim 2y ago
  *Starship Troopers I should add for completeness

383toast 2y ago

getting splintered metaverses seem way more feasible than splintered physical planets

elzbardico 2y ago
Then you get a Chicxulub and it is all over.
jerf 2y ago
You have to have everyone go into the splintered metaverses to avoid physical expansion. Everyone. Every biological body. Every AI. Every AI written for the specific purpose of having a long enough time horizon to settle new locations physically. Even the AIs written specifically to marshal together the physical resources to build more metaverse computing power. Even the AIs and fiesty biological bodies who one way or another end up with a 100% bias towards physical reality. Even the many, many beings who will quite accurately observe that no matter how short-term appealing this is a long-term loss. Even the beings who specifically want to be the ones in charge of the physical machinery and see an advantage to continuing to expand it. Every. Last. Being. I don't think this degree of uniformity is plausible. I reject this as an explanation for the Fermi paradox for similar reasons, except they're even more relevant across all of the putatively common alien civilizations. I don't even find it plausible that all of human civilization would do this, let alone all of every civilization ever.
- ANewFormation 2y ago
  I couldn't agree more, but with one exception. I tend to heavily indulge the simulation hypothesis, but the nuance here being that it's not necessarily just an arbitrarily simulated complete reality. Our lives do an unbelievably good job of teaching us endless unteachable lessons. What if life as we know it is, for instance, little more than a day's lesson in another reality? Or a day of a gaming? Perhaps a test of character for some sort of role? There's no reason to assume time, and life expectancy as we know it, are universal truths. Even within our own reality the rate of the passage of time is variable. The only problem I have with the simulation hypothesis is it being turtles all the way down. Imagine you pass from this world only to 'awake' in another. How does the exact same simulation argument not just apply yet again? It seems fundamentally unfalsifiable and circular, but I suppose that is standard for any explanation of life.
  - c22 2y ago
    I believe this is actually one of the strongest arguments for the simulation hypothesis. If simulated worlds are possible then there are almost certainly more simulated worlds than non-simulated worlds (of which there can only be one) so therefore the odds of existing in a simulated variety are never less than half and likely much higher or else simulated worlds cannot exist with enough fidelity to remain undetected.
    - dpassens 2y ago
      I think the last part is the problem with this argument. We can already simulate worlds (Minecraft), they're just very different from our own. It has to be possible to actually simulate our universe. Not just theoretically, but also practically: Someone needs to have enough energy, time, engineering ability, other resources, and enough motivation¹ to run the simulation. Also, if you permit me to get spiritual for a moment, I believe that it could be theoretically possible to simulate any fully materialist universe, but I'm not convinced consciousness can arise from doing maths. Since I am conscious, this universe must not be simulated, no matter how many simulated worlds actually exist. [1] I'm assuming that most creatures intelligent enough to understand the concept of simulating a universe will want to try it. But if it takes an entire civilization to do so and that civilization has to choose between, say, spending the energy on simulation running or on food production, it's pretty clear what will happen.

UltraSane 2y ago

In the excellent very hard sci-fi novel Diaspora by Greg Egan humanity has split into 3 main branches that don't really trust each other much. biological humans, which are subdivided into various genetically altered varieties and the original unmodified humans. nuclear powered humanoid robots that are not allowed on earth but are perfect for working in space. fully simulated humans being run on nuclear powered computers buried deep underground for security. Their minds run 700 times faster than normal humans. This feels pretty plausible to me.

meiraleal 2y ago

Can't wait for the Rastafari planet

selimthegrim 2y ago

>even the Mormons will finally have their planets I can’t remember if this was in the Heinlein novel, but in the film the director was certainly having a go at this when that planet was the one to get attacked

ANewFormation 2y ago
The Expanse also had fun with this bit. It's a nice little easter egg because I think most people think Mormonism is just another typical Christian branch.
selimthegrim 2y ago
*Starship Troopers I should add for completeness