4 ms·

What was the cost per MWh last week again? No, we're not "doing ok on renewables" And no, it's not "too late to fix that". We have 8 restartable reactors, we d

What was the cost per MWh last week again? No, we're not "doing ok on renewables" And no, it's not "too late to fix that". We have 8 restartable reactors, we don't need to build new ones to do that. (Isar 2 is probably restartable within a year or two)

cyberpunk 2y ago
Yes sure, I agree. It’s extremely expensive. I can only speak for my region (Berlin Brandenburg) but there’s solar going up everywhere around. Perhaps not fast enough, but movement is happening.
ximm 2y ago
Making energy expensive is kind of the point, isn't it? The cost of destroying the planet was not billed in so far, so we need to correct that.
- holowoodman 2y ago
  Actually, the energy sources that currently rake in the cash at 1Eur/kWh are gas and coal power plants. Because wind and solar are offline due to shitty weather.
  - groby_b 2y ago
    I guess more coal and gas was "kind of the point"
- Gud 2y ago
  Absolutely not. The alternative to using electric energy is using manpower. Blood, sweat and tears. What must be gotten rid of is high emission energy sources.
holowoodman 2y ago
Nope. Actually, none of the nuclear reactors in Germany are restartable. By now, all of them have had their permit to dismantle for some time. In all of them, they already started sawing apart the less radioactive components and flushing the rest with agressive cleaning agents and sticky goo to get rid of mobile particles that could endanger the workers. Which means that none of the reactor components are in any usable state and would need to be exchanged for new ones. Doing that in an old reactor is more expensive than building a whole new one, and would probably take a lot longer.
deepbluev7 2y ago
You want to change energy policies based on the price of power during a few days a year? That is rather short sighted. Even with those 3-5 days of high prices, the average price is expected to be 30% lower this year compared to last year. This is also reflected in the prices consumers and the industry have to pay. Consumer prices are still trending downwards and the industry price has been very close to the lowest prices over the last 10-20 years, especially if you consider inflation (but only if you had to pay the EEG before). The prices also only jumped about as far up as to match the current gas prices, which is somewhat expected if there is no wind or solar and the missing energy has to be produced by burning gas. This is not what will be the case long term. Germany is almost doubling the installed battery storage capacity every year and has been keeping that up for almost a decade at this point: https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/installed_power/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE&legendItems=gy9&year=-1 https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/installed_power/chart.... This trend is likely to continue and will smooth out a few days of no renewables soon. Additionally so far biomass has been subsidized without it having to follow the load. This is expected to change this (there was at least one law proposed, don't know if that was decided on yet), which would make Germany follow a lot closer to how Denmark seems to operate its grid. The big problems in the German energy grid are, that there is not enough transfer capacity, not enough storage and not enough renewables in the grid yet. More renewables make storage more attractive, but earlier conservative governments killed both solar and wind installations, because they wanted to focus on nuclear, only to then reverse course a short time later. Solar was on an exponential trend until the government implemented policies, that basically killed expansion around the 2012 time frame: https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/installed_power/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE&legendItems=bw2&year=-1&partsum=0&expansion=installation_decommission&stacking=single https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/installed_power/chart.... A similar story applies to wind power, where additional regulation regarding the distance of wind turbines to living spaces made it almost impossible to build new wind turbines (around 2017). Similar policies also prevented installation of new power lines or at least significantly delayed their installation. Had conservative governments not implemented those, we would likely be at 100% renewables already most of the time in Germany and the average price for electricity would be significantly lower. But the distraction of nuclear and then gas and coal by conservative governments put us into the position we are in today. A completely renewable grid is possible and not too far off for many countries in the EU and elsewhere, but you need to actually build the infrastructure for it instead of sabotaging it. Restarting reactors won't help in that regard. The few reactors that were still in the grid in 2022 did not reduce the record electricity prices that year. (They would also not have helped when they were at their peak with about 30% of the grid. Germany stopped constructing nuclear plants in the 80s after all and nuclear has been in a decline since then, even though officially that was only decided in 2002 and then 2011.) And the prices continue falling since the last nuclear plants were shut off in 2023. Today renewables are the cheapest source of energy. Storage is still a problem, but battery prices still half every few years, which makes battery storage economical today already and only cheaper in the long run. For all intents and purposes Germany is doing ok in renewables. It could be a lot better, but there is a clear plan and if conservative governments don't reverse course next year (again) as well as stop sabotaging renewables in local governments (like Bavaria), prices will soon be the lowest they have been in 2 decades. This is backed up by plenty of data and studies. Nuclear plants are cool in theory, but they can't compete in price in the long term and trying to go back to them would be the same mistake the German car industry made, when it tried to push ICE cars and is now getting steam rolled by China in the EV market. Or when Germans invested into gas pipelines instead of renewables, because it was cheaper at the time. Germany can't afford to make plans only for the next 2 years, it needs to have plans for the next few decades.

cyberpunk 2y ago

Yes sure, I agree. It’s extremely expensive. I can only speak for my region (Berlin Brandenburg) but there’s solar going up everywhere around. Perhaps not fast enough, but movement is happening.

ximm 2y ago

Making energy expensive is kind of the point, isn't it? The cost of destroying the planet was not billed in so far, so we need to correct that.

holowoodman 2y ago
Actually, the energy sources that currently rake in the cash at 1Eur/kWh are gas and coal power plants. Because wind and solar are offline due to shitty weather.
- groby_b 2y ago
  I guess more coal and gas was "kind of the point"
Gud 2y ago
Absolutely not. The alternative to using electric energy is using manpower. Blood, sweat and tears. What must be gotten rid of is high emission energy sources.

holowoodman 2y ago

Nope. Actually, none of the nuclear reactors in Germany are restartable. By now, all of them have had their permit to dismantle for some time. In all of them, they already started sawing apart the less radioactive components and flushing the rest with agressive cleaning agents and sticky goo to get rid of mobile particles that could endanger the workers. Which means that none of the reactor components are in any usable state and would need to be exchanged for new ones. Doing that in an old reactor is more expensive than building a whole new one, and would probably take a lot longer.

deepbluev7 2y ago

You want to change energy policies based on the price of power during a few days a year? That is rather short sighted. Even with those 3-5 days of high prices, the average price is expected to be 30% lower this year compared to last year. This is also reflected in the prices consumers and the industry have to pay. Consumer prices are still trending downwards and the industry price has been very close to the lowest prices over the last 10-20 years, especially if you consider inflation (but only if you had to pay the EEG before). The prices also only jumped about as far up as to match the current gas prices, which is somewhat expected if there is no wind or solar and the missing energy has to be produced by burning gas. This is not what will be the case long term. Germany is almost doubling the installed battery storage capacity every year and has been keeping that up for almost a decade at this point: https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/installed_power/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE&legendItems=gy9&year=-1 https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/installed_power/chart.... This trend is likely to continue and will smooth out a few days of no renewables soon. Additionally so far biomass has been subsidized without it having to follow the load. This is expected to change this (there was at least one law proposed, don't know if that was decided on yet), which would make Germany follow a lot closer to how Denmark seems to operate its grid. The big problems in the German energy grid are, that there is not enough transfer capacity, not enough storage and not enough renewables in the grid yet. More renewables make storage more attractive, but earlier conservative governments killed both solar and wind installations, because they wanted to focus on nuclear, only to then reverse course a short time later. Solar was on an exponential trend until the government implemented policies, that basically killed expansion around the 2012 time frame: https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/installed_power/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE&legendItems=bw2&year=-1&partsum=0&expansion=installation_decommission&stacking=single https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/installed_power/chart.... A similar story applies to wind power, where additional regulation regarding the distance of wind turbines to living spaces made it almost impossible to build new wind turbines (around 2017). Similar policies also prevented installation of new power lines or at least significantly delayed their installation. Had conservative governments not implemented those, we would likely be at 100% renewables already most of the time in Germany and the average price for electricity would be significantly lower. But the distraction of nuclear and then gas and coal by conservative governments put us into the position we are in today. A completely renewable grid is possible and not too far off for many countries in the EU and elsewhere, but you need to actually build the infrastructure for it instead of sabotaging it. Restarting reactors won't help in that regard. The few reactors that were still in the grid in 2022 did not reduce the record electricity prices that year. (They would also not have helped when they were at their peak with about 30% of the grid. Germany stopped constructing nuclear plants in the 80s after all and nuclear has been in a decline since then, even though officially that was only decided in 2002 and then 2011.) And the prices continue falling since the last nuclear plants were shut off in 2023. Today renewables are the cheapest source of energy. Storage is still a problem, but battery prices still half every few years, which makes battery storage economical today already and only cheaper in the long run. For all intents and purposes Germany is doing ok in renewables. It could be a lot better, but there is a clear plan and if conservative governments don't reverse course next year (again) as well as stop sabotaging renewables in local governments (like Bavaria), prices will soon be the lowest they have been in 2 decades. This is backed up by plenty of data and studies. Nuclear plants are cool in theory, but they can't compete in price in the long term and trying to go back to them would be the same mistake the German car industry made, when it tried to push ICE cars and is now getting steam rolled by China in the EV market. Or when Germans invested into gas pipelines instead of renewables, because it was cheaper at the time. Germany can't afford to make plans only for the next 2 years, it needs to have plans for the next few decades.