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In Sweden, I've been in contact with several companies and associations which are raising small solar farms and selling stocks on them (so, there is a primary m

by dsign 2y ago

In Sweden, I've been in contact with several companies and associations which are raising small solar farms and selling stocks on them (so, there is a primary market for stocks on renewables). Investment is affordable and transparent and it feels "grass-roots democratic". The problem with solar farms is that this time of the year, they don't produce power. The only green alternative that would produce power is nuclear, and that one is out of reach for small private investors.... I don't even know if nuclear power stocks would be available in a secondary market .

tcfhgj 2y ago
What about wind power which is strong in winter? What about energy storage systems, e.g. using green gas? There seem to be more green options than nuclear power.
- pelorat 2y ago
  I think that's a problem everywhere in Europe. We build wind and we build solar, but we don't build storage systems to go with them.
  - tcfhgj 2y ago
    A few additions: As long as there is enough production capacity (using fossil fuels), it isn't a serious problem, even though not ideal. Storage systems are economically viable only if there is a high price difference, especially when you have to pay twice the network fee (recently temporarily dropped in Germany). CO2 pricing will increase the price difference with time (renewable energy stays cheap and fossil backups will be more expensive, making room on the market for businesses storing energy)
- karmakurtisaani 2y ago
  The past few days wind has been pretty bad. In the long term I think it will be good as battery storages are rising, but the next few years are still going to be tough.
  - tcfhgj 2y ago
    I doubt battery storage will be the solution, it's very resource intensive large scale. I bet on gas or liquids.
  - moepstar 2y ago
    > The past few days wind has been pretty bad. Except... it was not. Here. And somewhere, the sun is shining. People need to _stop_ thinking energy production is hyperlocal when, in reality, it is not. And never has been. Now, swedes are complaining, germans (i.e. me) are buying energy and raising prices. There will be a time, when they will import energy from us. Just as much as we exported energy to France when half their atomic powerplants have been shutdown due to no cooling water available. Is it helpful to beancount each and any time more energy has been exported than imported or the other way around? No, i don't think so. And yes, the next big challenge is to build grid-level energy storage. Yes, with batteries. No, hydrogen is not the answer. Batteries it is. Get moving, stop complaining.
    - piva00 2y ago
      > Now, swedes are complaining, germans (i.e. me) are buying energy and raising prices. There will be a time, when they will import energy from us. Just as much as we exported energy to France when half their atomic powerplants have been shutdown due to no cooling water available. Sweden is pretty self-sufficient in power generation, most times I've checked the electricity interchange maps we are exporting electricity, never caught a moment where we imported significant amounts of it. I'd very much like to not pay exorbitant prices because Germany's energy policies have been misguided, I understand suffering it during a time of crisis (like the Russian invasion of Ukraine) but right now it hurts on many fronts: German's proto-recession (caused in part by high cost of energy) affects Swedish exports since Germany is one of our largest importers; extremely high energy prices shuts down our industry; consumer spending goes down because people get uncertain about prices and buffer more against this uncertainty. I really like Germany, and have been impressed by the rapid push to renewables after you got fleeced by believing in Russia but it's hard to shake the feeling of resentment on how slow moving your bureaucracy is because of industry's power over your politicians...
    - 2y ago
- dsign 2y ago
  I don't know about wind-power stocks, worth taking a look. About energy storage systems, they fall into "risk investment", i.e., something that venture funds would go for. There is risk capital in Sweden but it is a boutique thing: small amounts, hard to find. The average Sven who can invest wants to invest in something safer. Since the government takes the majority of wage-earners' income in taxes[^1], and thus there is not much disposable income, it's up to the government to step in and finance big and even medium-sized infrastructure, and the same applies to risk profiles. [1]: 63 cents (öre) on every kronor above the amount equivalent to approx 5000 USD/month that an employer would set apart for wages, including self-wages for self-employed people.

by dsign 2y ago

tcfhgj 2y ago

What about wind power which is strong in winter? What about energy storage systems, e.g. using green gas? There seem to be more green options than nuclear power.

pelorat 2y ago
I think that's a problem everywhere in Europe. We build wind and we build solar, but we don't build storage systems to go with them.
- tcfhgj 2y ago
  A few additions: As long as there is enough production capacity (using fossil fuels), it isn't a serious problem, even though not ideal. Storage systems are economically viable only if there is a high price difference, especially when you have to pay twice the network fee (recently temporarily dropped in Germany). CO2 pricing will increase the price difference with time (renewable energy stays cheap and fossil backups will be more expensive, making room on the market for businesses storing energy)
karmakurtisaani 2y ago
The past few days wind has been pretty bad. In the long term I think it will be good as battery storages are rising, but the next few years are still going to be tough.
- tcfhgj 2y ago
  I doubt battery storage will be the solution, it's very resource intensive large scale. I bet on gas or liquids.
- moepstar 2y ago
  > The past few days wind has been pretty bad. Except... it was not. Here. And somewhere, the sun is shining. People need to _stop_ thinking energy production is hyperlocal when, in reality, it is not. And never has been. Now, swedes are complaining, germans (i.e. me) are buying energy and raising prices. There will be a time, when they will import energy from us. Just as much as we exported energy to France when half their atomic powerplants have been shutdown due to no cooling water available. Is it helpful to beancount each and any time more energy has been exported than imported or the other way around? No, i don't think so. And yes, the next big challenge is to build grid-level energy storage. Yes, with batteries. No, hydrogen is not the answer. Batteries it is. Get moving, stop complaining.
  - piva00 2y ago
    > Now, swedes are complaining, germans (i.e. me) are buying energy and raising prices. There will be a time, when they will import energy from us. Just as much as we exported energy to France when half their atomic powerplants have been shutdown due to no cooling water available. Sweden is pretty self-sufficient in power generation, most times I've checked the electricity interchange maps we are exporting electricity, never caught a moment where we imported significant amounts of it. I'd very much like to not pay exorbitant prices because Germany's energy policies have been misguided, I understand suffering it during a time of crisis (like the Russian invasion of Ukraine) but right now it hurts on many fronts: German's proto-recession (caused in part by high cost of energy) affects Swedish exports since Germany is one of our largest importers; extremely high energy prices shuts down our industry; consumer spending goes down because people get uncertain about prices and buffer more against this uncertainty. I really like Germany, and have been impressed by the rapid push to renewables after you got fleeced by believing in Russia but it's hard to shake the feeling of resentment on how slow moving your bureaucracy is because of industry's power over your politicians...
  - 2y ago
dsign 2y ago
I don't know about wind-power stocks, worth taking a look. About energy storage systems, they fall into "risk investment", i.e., something that venture funds would go for. There is risk capital in Sweden but it is a boutique thing: small amounts, hard to find. The average Sven who can invest wants to invest in something safer. Since the government takes the majority of wage-earners' income in taxes[^1], and thus there is not much disposable income, it's up to the government to step in and finance big and even medium-sized infrastructure, and the same applies to risk profiles. [1]: 63 cents (öre) on every kronor above the amount equivalent to approx 5000 USD/month that an employer would set apart for wages, including self-wages for self-employed people.