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I'm not saying this is the same thing the author is proposing, but... I'm reminded of a quote from one of my favorite book-series: > One of the Patrician’s gre

by Terr_ 2y ago

I'm not saying this is the same thing the author is proposing, but... I'm reminded of a quote from one of my favorite book-series: > One of the Patrician’s greatest contributions to the reliable operation of Ankh-Morpork had been, very early in his administration, the legalizing of the ancient Guild of Thieves. Crime was always with us, he reasoned, and therefore, if you were going to have crime, at least it should be organized crime. > And so the Guild had been encouraged to come out of the shadows and build a big Guildhouse, take their place at civic banquets, and set up their training college with day-release courses and City and Guilds certificates and everything. In exchange for the winding down of the Watch, they agreed, while trying to keep their faces straight, to keep crime levels to a level to be determined annually. That way, everyone could plan ahead, said Lord Vetinari, and part of the uncertainty had been removed from the chaos that is life. > And then, a little while later, the Patrician summoned the leading thieves again and said, oh, by the way, there was something else. What was it, now? Oh, yes... I know who you are, he said. I know where you live. I know what kind of horse you ride. I know where your wife has her hair done. I know where your lovely children, how old are they now, my, doesn’t time fly, I know where they play. So you won’t forget about what we agreed, will you? -- Guards! Guards! by Terry Pratchett

pavlov 2y ago
This is also the story of cryptocurrencies. From Silk Road to ETF-wrapped investment products where no actual crypto ever moves when you trade it. For 99.9% of crypto investors, the Patrician knows exactly what kind of horse they ride. Soon the deal will be complete. Starting next year there will be an acceptable level of securities fraud and pump-and-dumps in the US, with the SEC looking the other way while crypto banksters and their political allies con the public.
- k__ 2y ago
  I started in crypto just three years ago, and while it's a bit more alternative, overall it's just business. Sure, I get paid in all kinds of tokens, and it's nice to see some coins rise after I get paid, which makes freelancer work feel a tiiiiiny bit more like being and employee with stock. But it's just a job like any other. I write articles, I write code, I talk with clients, investors, users... And at the end of the day I get paid.
  - staunton 2y ago
    There's ransomware hackers in some countries who also write reports while getting health insurance and paid parental leave...
    - k__ 2y ago
      Fair.
    - b112 2y ago
      You could say the same about anything, let's pick cars. "There are people driving cars to commit crimes, like bank robbery!" Oh no! Now all cars and their drivers are criminals, I suppose? Grandma driving to the grocery store surely is up to no good? I think the claim being attempted is that crypto is mostly used for crime. Yet is that true? How many transactions happened yesterday? And how many were nefarious?
      - danielheath 2y ago
        > I think the claim being attempted is that crypto is mostly used for crime. Yet is that true? I mean... whether it's true or not, it sure _looks true from the outside_. What it looks like from the outside has little bearing on the underlying reality, but it's extremely relevant to questions like "will I be viewed with suspicion for having worked with this" or "is my company likely to end up subject to restrictive regulation". Assuming (I genuinely do not know) that the crypto industry has got legitimate uses which are not dwarfed by illegitimate ones, it has got a _massive_ image problem - because "everyone knows" it's for crime.
      - staunton 2y ago
        I made no specific claim about "crypto" one way or the other. My point is that to decide if some activity is legal, or moral, etc., you have to look at what is actually done. It's not enough to look at whether the day-to-day work "feels like a normal job", or "looks like a normal job" from the outside. You can have a highly respectable job while interacting with people who all look like stereotypical movie mobsters (e.g. prison social worker). You can also sit in a respectable office all day wearing a nice suit while committing genocide.
- kerkeslager 2y ago
  It's actually stranger than that. The legal cryptocurrencies are often worse than the ones that lack respectability. Take for example, Greyscale's Chainlink Trust. It would be hard to find a more respectable cryptocurrency investment, yet I did some analysis of it about a year ago, and concluded they were selling Chainlink to their customers at approximately 8x the price on Coinbase[1]. Chainlink isn't likely to pull an 8x an time soon, and even if it does, trust investors wouldn't see the benefit, because Greyscale can simply seize those gains. There are two one could think of this in traditional market terms: 1. You can think of Greyscale as an arbitrageur between on-chain Chainlink and trust shares, where they'll be trying to purchase Chainlink at times when the difference between on-chain Chainlink and trust Chainlink is maximized. 2. You could also think of Greyscale as being able to print "shares". They can't print shares for free (i.e. they are legally obligated to purchase on-chain Chainlink) but they control the supply part of the supply:demand ratio. They can simply purchase on-chain Chainlink when the supply:demand ratio for trust Chainlink is higher than on-chain Chainlink, which takes money from trust Chainlink investors by diluting their shares. In theory the market will trend toward rational (i.e. eventually on-chain and trust Chainlink will trend toward a value that is equal, adjusted for the value of legal integration) but until that happens Greyscale is positioned as the only player that can take advantage of that temporary irrationality. Cryptocurrency has always been an application of caveat emptor where the caveats can be hidden in the code or the economics, or both, but with the integration into the legal system, it's now possible for cryptocurrencies with solid code and economics to scam the public with legal caveats. The average person was always at a disadvantage with cryptocurrencies, but I fear with the addition of legal respectability, even someone like myself who can read the code and has a solid understanding of economics can no longer be sure of my crypto investments. I'm finding lately that options trading has the same high variance (high upside potential is why I wanted into crypto investing), without a lot of the parts I don't like. Particularly, I'm doing it with my Roth IRA money so even taxes are easy. [1] These numbers have almost certainly changed since I did this analysis--I know HNers like to correct people, but consider that before you correct me here.
  - mrguyorama 2y ago
    >Cryptocurrency has always been an application of caveat emptor where the caveats can be hidden in the code or the economics, or both, but with the integration into the legal system, it's now possible for cryptocurrencies with solid code and economics to scam the public with legal caveats. In other words, a EULA?
crazygringo 2y ago
I've never read the book, so perhaps I'm missing the point, but -- surely then the Guild points out they've always known where the Patrician lives and where his wife had her hair done and so forth? And the Patrician says, ahem quite right what was I thinking? We'll maintain what we agreed. I mean, in US urban areas back in its heyday, everyone knew who the mafia were. But that didn't prevent them from doing their mafia thing.
- bombcar 2y ago
  In the books the Patrician is a politician who was trained as an assassin (who have their own guild, and after many incidents refuse to take contracts on the Patrician because it's not worth their life). What he's doing there is turning the thieves into the watch - they have a permitted level of theft they can do, normal people can buy "guild passes" which immunizine themselves from even that level of theft, and the Thieves' Guild comes down exceptionally hard on unlicensed thieves. And the Patrician is unmarried. They're quite fun to read as Pratchett has a good handle on the "balance of power" negotiations that the Patrician engages in; he plays various power groups off against each other in such a way that he is always the second worst problem to deal with, and taking him out would make it worse.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- Terr_ 2y ago
  The most important factor in that the Patrician (Havelock Vetinari, as a joke on the Medicis) ensures that almost everyone agrees that his continued rule is marginally better than upsetting the status-quo... And in some cases allows opposition to succeed just enough to make people regret it. Part of this rests on the ancient Guild of Assassins, which requires a certain amount of style and also has a very very dim view on anyone threatening their monopoly on killing-for-profit. Their price for going after Vetinari is high enough to discourage most bidders, and Vetinari is a skilled (mostly non-practicing) alumnus that can largely protect himself from them. ______ > “I see you're very comfortable here,” said Vimes weakly. > “Never build a dungeon you wouldn't be happy to spend the night in yourself,” said the Patrician, laying out the food on the cloth. “The world would be a happier place if more people remembered that.” > “We all thought you had built secret tunnels and suchlike,” said Vimes. > “Can't imagine why,” said the Patrician. “One would have to keep on running. So inefficient. Whereas here I am at the hub of things. I hope you understand that, Vimes. Never trust any ruler who puts his faith in tunnels and bunkers and escape routes. The chances are that his heart isn't in the job.” [...] > "You see,” he said, “it’s always the case, is it not, that should a city be overtaken by violent civil unrest the current ruler is thrown into the dungeons? To a certain type of mind that is so much more satisfying than mere execution." > “Well, okay, but I don’t see—” Vimes began. > “And you look at this door and what you see is a really strong cell door, yes?” > “Of course. You’ve only got to look at the bolts and—” > “You know, I’m really rather pleased,” said Lord Vetinari quietly. > Vimes stared at the door until his eyebrows ached. And then, just as random patterns in cloud suddenly, without changing in any way, become a horse’s head or a sailing ship, he saw what he’d been looking at all along. A sense of terrifying admiration overcame him. > He wondered what it was like in the Patrician’s mind. All cold and shiny, he thought, all blued steel and icicles and little wheels clicking along like a huge clock. The kind of mind that would carefully consider its own downfall and turn it to advantage. It was a perfectly normal dungeon door, but it all depended on your sense of perspective. > In this dungeon the Patrician could hold off the world. All that was on the outside was the lock. All the bolts and bars were on the inside. -- Guards! Guards!

by Terr_ 2y ago

pavlov 2y ago

This is also the story of cryptocurrencies. From Silk Road to ETF-wrapped investment products where no actual crypto ever moves when you trade it. For 99.9% of crypto investors, the Patrician knows exactly what kind of horse they ride. Soon the deal will be complete. Starting next year there will be an acceptable level of securities fraud and pump-and-dumps in the US, with the SEC looking the other way while crypto banksters and their political allies con the public.

k__ 2y ago
I started in crypto just three years ago, and while it's a bit more alternative, overall it's just business. Sure, I get paid in all kinds of tokens, and it's nice to see some coins rise after I get paid, which makes freelancer work feel a tiiiiiny bit more like being and employee with stock. But it's just a job like any other. I write articles, I write code, I talk with clients, investors, users... And at the end of the day I get paid.
- staunton 2y ago
  There's ransomware hackers in some countries who also write reports while getting health insurance and paid parental leave...
  - k__ 2y ago
    Fair.
  - b112 2y ago
    You could say the same about anything, let's pick cars. "There are people driving cars to commit crimes, like bank robbery!" Oh no! Now all cars and their drivers are criminals, I suppose? Grandma driving to the grocery store surely is up to no good? I think the claim being attempted is that crypto is mostly used for crime. Yet is that true? How many transactions happened yesterday? And how many were nefarious?
    - danielheath 2y ago
      > I think the claim being attempted is that crypto is mostly used for crime. Yet is that true? I mean... whether it's true or not, it sure _looks true from the outside_. What it looks like from the outside has little bearing on the underlying reality, but it's extremely relevant to questions like "will I be viewed with suspicion for having worked with this" or "is my company likely to end up subject to restrictive regulation". Assuming (I genuinely do not know) that the crypto industry has got legitimate uses which are not dwarfed by illegitimate ones, it has got a _massive_ image problem - because "everyone knows" it's for crime.
    - staunton 2y ago
      I made no specific claim about "crypto" one way or the other. My point is that to decide if some activity is legal, or moral, etc., you have to look at what is actually done. It's not enough to look at whether the day-to-day work "feels like a normal job", or "looks like a normal job" from the outside. You can have a highly respectable job while interacting with people who all look like stereotypical movie mobsters (e.g. prison social worker). You can also sit in a respectable office all day wearing a nice suit while committing genocide.
kerkeslager 2y ago
It's actually stranger than that. The legal cryptocurrencies are often worse than the ones that lack respectability. Take for example, Greyscale's Chainlink Trust. It would be hard to find a more respectable cryptocurrency investment, yet I did some analysis of it about a year ago, and concluded they were selling Chainlink to their customers at approximately 8x the price on Coinbase[1]. Chainlink isn't likely to pull an 8x an time soon, and even if it does, trust investors wouldn't see the benefit, because Greyscale can simply seize those gains. There are two one could think of this in traditional market terms: 1. You can think of Greyscale as an arbitrageur between on-chain Chainlink and trust shares, where they'll be trying to purchase Chainlink at times when the difference between on-chain Chainlink and trust Chainlink is maximized. 2. You could also think of Greyscale as being able to print "shares". They can't print shares for free (i.e. they are legally obligated to purchase on-chain Chainlink) but they control the supply part of the supply:demand ratio. They can simply purchase on-chain Chainlink when the supply:demand ratio for trust Chainlink is higher than on-chain Chainlink, which takes money from trust Chainlink investors by diluting their shares. In theory the market will trend toward rational (i.e. eventually on-chain and trust Chainlink will trend toward a value that is equal, adjusted for the value of legal integration) but until that happens Greyscale is positioned as the only player that can take advantage of that temporary irrationality. Cryptocurrency has always been an application of caveat emptor where the caveats can be hidden in the code or the economics, or both, but with the integration into the legal system, it's now possible for cryptocurrencies with solid code and economics to scam the public with legal caveats. The average person was always at a disadvantage with cryptocurrencies, but I fear with the addition of legal respectability, even someone like myself who can read the code and has a solid understanding of economics can no longer be sure of my crypto investments. I'm finding lately that options trading has the same high variance (high upside potential is why I wanted into crypto investing), without a lot of the parts I don't like. Particularly, I'm doing it with my Roth IRA money so even taxes are easy. [1] These numbers have almost certainly changed since I did this analysis--I know HNers like to correct people, but consider that before you correct me here.
- mrguyorama 2y ago
  >Cryptocurrency has always been an application of caveat emptor where the caveats can be hidden in the code or the economics, or both, but with the integration into the legal system, it's now possible for cryptocurrencies with solid code and economics to scam the public with legal caveats. In other words, a EULA?

crazygringo 2y ago

I've never read the book, so perhaps I'm missing the point, but -- surely then the Guild points out they've always known where the Patrician lives and where his wife had her hair done and so forth? And the Patrician says, ahem quite right what was I thinking? We'll maintain what we agreed. I mean, in US urban areas back in its heyday, everyone knew who the mafia were. But that didn't prevent them from doing their mafia thing.

bombcar 2y ago
In the books the Patrician is a politician who was trained as an assassin (who have their own guild, and after many incidents refuse to take contracts on the Patrician because it's not worth their life). What he's doing there is turning the thieves into the watch - they have a permitted level of theft they can do, normal people can buy "guild passes" which immunizine themselves from even that level of theft, and the Thieves' Guild comes down exceptionally hard on unlicensed thieves. And the Patrician is unmarried. They're quite fun to read as Pratchett has a good handle on the "balance of power" negotiations that the Patrician engages in; he plays various power groups off against each other in such a way that he is always the second worst problem to deal with, and taking him out would make it worse.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
Terr_ 2y ago
The most important factor in that the Patrician (Havelock Vetinari, as a joke on the Medicis) ensures that almost everyone agrees that his continued rule is marginally better than upsetting the status-quo... And in some cases allows opposition to succeed just enough to make people regret it. Part of this rests on the ancient Guild of Assassins, which requires a certain amount of style and also has a very very dim view on anyone threatening their monopoly on killing-for-profit. Their price for going after Vetinari is high enough to discourage most bidders, and Vetinari is a skilled (mostly non-practicing) alumnus that can largely protect himself from them. ______ > “I see you're very comfortable here,” said Vimes weakly. > “Never build a dungeon you wouldn't be happy to spend the night in yourself,” said the Patrician, laying out the food on the cloth. “The world would be a happier place if more people remembered that.” > “We all thought you had built secret tunnels and suchlike,” said Vimes. > “Can't imagine why,” said the Patrician. “One would have to keep on running. So inefficient. Whereas here I am at the hub of things. I hope you understand that, Vimes. Never trust any ruler who puts his faith in tunnels and bunkers and escape routes. The chances are that his heart isn't in the job.” [...] > "You see,” he said, “it’s always the case, is it not, that should a city be overtaken by violent civil unrest the current ruler is thrown into the dungeons? To a certain type of mind that is so much more satisfying than mere execution." > “Well, okay, but I don’t see—” Vimes began. > “And you look at this door and what you see is a really strong cell door, yes?” > “Of course. You’ve only got to look at the bolts and—” > “You know, I’m really rather pleased,” said Lord Vetinari quietly. > Vimes stared at the door until his eyebrows ached. And then, just as random patterns in cloud suddenly, without changing in any way, become a horse’s head or a sailing ship, he saw what he’d been looking at all along. A sense of terrifying admiration overcame him. > He wondered what it was like in the Patrician’s mind. All cold and shiny, he thought, all blued steel and icicles and little wheels clicking along like a huge clock. The kind of mind that would carefully consider its own downfall and turn it to advantage. It was a perfectly normal dungeon door, but it all depended on your sense of perspective. > In this dungeon the Patrician could hold off the world. All that was on the outside was the lock. All the bolts and bars were on the inside. -- Guards! Guards!