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> You don’t fight censorship with censorship. That doesn’t stand up to even the most cursory thought. You fight censorship with openness. Can you explain this

> You don’t fight censorship with censorship. That doesn’t stand up to even the most cursory thought. You fight censorship with openness. Can you explain this better without the assumption that it is self-evident?

brookst 2y ago
Sure. If censorship is wrong, then it is wrong. If censorship is just fine, the n it is just fine. It is the height of hypocrisy to engage in censorship in the name of stamping out censorship. It feels like a tautology because the opposing viewpoint is a very simple hypocrisy. If you don’t like something, don’t do it.
- RHSeeger 2y ago
  But, it's not really censorship, per se. It's "your company, which is of <this country> cannot do business in our country; because we want to give that a company in our country". And, in that light, doing the reverse (not allowing the company from that country to do business in ours) doesn't seem unreasonable. I'm not a fan of it, but I can understand the argument for it.
- RandomThoughts3 2y ago
  It’s not a censorship issue. It’s about market access. This is a commercial dispute not a freedom of expression one. There is plenty of other platforms where you will still be able to say whatever you want.
  - Cthulhu_ 2y ago
    Not Twitter or Truth Social though.
- binary_slinger 2y ago
  The world isn't black and white. It's very very gray.
- lazyeye 2y ago
  Adding Chinese censorship to the mix doesnt improve freedom of speech. At some point we have to stop being naive and operating in the realm of frictionless theory.
- kelnos 2y ago
  Your argument is predicated on the idea that banning TikTok is censorship. It's not. No speech or information is being suppressed; any speech being made on TikTok can instead be made on other platforms. This isn't like China where the government bans any services they can't control, and directs the services that they can control to suppress any information they don't want people talking about.
  - Fornax96 2y ago
    Who says the US isn't controlling the narrative on US social media?
    - corimaith 2y ago
      Sure are alot of people insinuating they are
    - throwaway290 2y ago
      Half of US social media (and more than half of Twitter) is saying US controls the narrative on US social media and something should be done about it. describe logical knots required to explain why that is the narrative if US controls the narrative? As a Russian people from the West saying how it's total censorship and totalitarianism amuse me. And I see how totalitarian and censored regimes are using of the lack of censorship with great success.
  - berdario 2y ago
    > any speech being made on TikTok can instead be made on other platforms That wholly depends on what are the other platforms. Meta's platforms for example are pretty heavy handed in their censorship: https://www.hrw.org/report/2023/12/21/metas-broken-promises/systemic-censorship-palestine-content-instagram-and https://www.hrw.org/report/2023/12/21/metas-broken-promises/... And Youtube is not that much better. To be fair, some of the same voices that get censored on US platforms are also getting censored on TikTok (though I currently cannot find the posts or articles that highlighted the issue)
  - rightbyte 2y ago
- throwaway290 2y ago
  By that logic if you are attacked you would no nothing because violence is wrong. Then you die.
- e-clinton 2y ago
  Your argument implies that banning was the only option… it wasn’t. They could’ve continued operating just the same had they sold the company.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- KoftaBob 2y ago
  Censorship is the suppression/prohibition of speech. Therefore, removing TikTok from app stores is not censorship, because it's the platform itself that's being targeted, not particular speech that's on it. Either you knew that already and you're making a bad faith argument, or you don't understand the concept of censorship.
- moralestapia 2y ago
  >If censorship is wrong, then it is wrong. If censorship is just fine, the n it is just fine. This is it, and it's so laughably simple that anyone who doesn't get it should check CO levels in their home before arguing.

brookst 2y ago

Sure. If censorship is wrong, then it is wrong. If censorship is just fine, the n it is just fine. It is the height of hypocrisy to engage in censorship in the name of stamping out censorship. It feels like a tautology because the opposing viewpoint is a very simple hypocrisy. If you don’t like something, don’t do it.

RHSeeger 2y ago
But, it's not really censorship, per se. It's "your company, which is of <this country> cannot do business in our country; because we want to give that a company in our country". And, in that light, doing the reverse (not allowing the company from that country to do business in ours) doesn't seem unreasonable. I'm not a fan of it, but I can understand the argument for it.
RandomThoughts3 2y ago
It’s not a censorship issue. It’s about market access. This is a commercial dispute not a freedom of expression one. There is plenty of other platforms where you will still be able to say whatever you want.
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  Not Twitter or Truth Social though.
binary_slinger 2y ago
The world isn't black and white. It's very very gray.
lazyeye 2y ago
Adding Chinese censorship to the mix doesnt improve freedom of speech. At some point we have to stop being naive and operating in the realm of frictionless theory.
kelnos 2y ago
Your argument is predicated on the idea that banning TikTok is censorship. It's not. No speech or information is being suppressed; any speech being made on TikTok can instead be made on other platforms. This isn't like China where the government bans any services they can't control, and directs the services that they can control to suppress any information they don't want people talking about.
- Fornax96 2y ago
  Who says the US isn't controlling the narrative on US social media?
  - corimaith 2y ago
    Sure are alot of people insinuating they are
  - throwaway290 2y ago
    Half of US social media (and more than half of Twitter) is saying US controls the narrative on US social media and something should be done about it. describe logical knots required to explain why that is the narrative if US controls the narrative? As a Russian people from the West saying how it's total censorship and totalitarianism amuse me. And I see how totalitarian and censored regimes are using of the lack of censorship with great success.
- berdario 2y ago
  > any speech being made on TikTok can instead be made on other platforms That wholly depends on what are the other platforms. Meta's platforms for example are pretty heavy handed in their censorship: https://www.hrw.org/report/2023/12/21/metas-broken-promises/systemic-censorship-palestine-content-instagram-and https://www.hrw.org/report/2023/12/21/metas-broken-promises/... And Youtube is not that much better. To be fair, some of the same voices that get censored on US platforms are also getting censored on TikTok (though I currently cannot find the posts or articles that highlighted the issue)
- rightbyte 2y ago
throwaway290 2y ago
By that logic if you are attacked you would no nothing because violence is wrong. Then you die.
e-clinton 2y ago
Your argument implies that banning was the only option… it wasn’t. They could’ve continued operating just the same had they sold the company.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
KoftaBob 2y ago
Censorship is the suppression/prohibition of speech. Therefore, removing TikTok from app stores is not censorship, because it's the platform itself that's being targeted, not particular speech that's on it. Either you knew that already and you're making a bad faith argument, or you don't understand the concept of censorship.
moralestapia 2y ago
>If censorship is wrong, then it is wrong. If censorship is just fine, the n it is just fine. This is it, and it's so laughably simple that anyone who doesn't get it should check CO levels in their home before arguing.