5 ms·

License plates are constantly scanned everywhere in the United States by public and private entities. What is the chilling effect you're referring to?

soulofmischief 2y ago
Yes, and it's actually pretty rampant in my own current city, it's been a huge sore point for years with activists. The chilling effect is that resistance becomes that much harder as the authoritarian ratchet tightens. When the movements of people can be tracked en masse via some panopticon, it is very easy to prevent them from organizing into any real threat against the incumbent. Here's an example from just last month in my city: https://www.wbrz.com/news/license-plate-readers-popping-up-at-mall-of-louisiana/ https://www.wbrz.com/news/license-plate-readers-popping-up-a... Crime, etc. are always the reason given. But my city has repeatedly shown they cannot be trusted with these kinds of powers. Here's more information from the ACLU on this exact topic: https://www.aclu.org/news/national-security/chilling-effects-license-plate-location-tracking https://www.aclu.org/news/national-security/chilling-effects... > Knowing or suspecting that we're being watched can stop us from engaging in certain kinds of behavior, even when it's perfectly lawful. For example, it might affect our decision to go to a certain barber (what would my other barber say?), meet up with a friend (what would my mom say?), eat at a restaurant (what would my trainer say?), or take the scenic route (is it suspicious that I'm not using my normal route?) Keep in mind that just a few decades ago we had the Red Scare. We harassed and ruined the lives of people over thoughtcrime, for simply supporting the notion of alternate economies or just accepting those who did. Imagine the scope of that if we'd had the surveillance network that we do today. And there is no indication that we won't have a similar event in the near future. Lastly, I know your question is in good faith and thank you for asking for clarification. That said, it's important to consider that manufactured normality isn't a valid reason to not question authority. It's quite easy for Corpgov to do anything at scale long enough that new generations are born into it and wholly accept it without question. All expressions of governmental authority must be constantly challenged and defended, and any possibility of chilling effects should be investigated thoroughly, time and again. This is our duty as The People, the fourth branch of the government. This is the critical check and balance which keeps things from becoming irrecoverably fucked.
- AtlasBarfed 2y ago
  People need to understand the danger of the current surveillance infrastructure. Turnkey totalitarianism. Totalitarian control is turnkey in America if the "wrong guy" gets in. It's funny because the voters aren't demanding limits, and yet each election cycle is life or death not just because of the he escalating propaganda... I think voters know that we are close to total oppression, on a subconscious fear level. Whether in the next four or forty years, someone will do it.
- try_the_bass 2y ago
  None of this is evidence of the "chilling effect" you claimed and were just asked about, though? You realize you're just moving the goalposts, right?
  - soulofmischief 2y ago
    I'm sorry, which part of my post did you have trouble with? I can try to break it down for you further until you understand. What do you perceive to be the moved goalposts here?
    - try_the_bass 2y ago
      I guess I was expecting some concrete examples of this chilling effect you spoke of? Your comment only refers to things in the hypothetical, before diverging off into other related topics. Do you have any actual examples of "resistance" that have been stifled by this "chilling effect"? I understand your hypotheticals and the point you're making, but we can conjure hypotheticals for any situation or context, all without any specific relationship to truth.
      - soulofmischief 2y ago
        Well, it's not a hypothetical to say that surveillance leads to reduced non-conventional civic participation and reduces the ability for citizens to safely engage in protest. We can look at contemporary research of highly surveilled institutions: https://cdt.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Student-Activity-Monitoring-Software-Research-Insights-and-Recommendations.pdf https://cdt.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Student-Activity-... > Of students who indicate that their school uses monitoring software, many report a chilling effect on their behavior and self-expression online — six in ten students agree with the statement, “I do not share my true thoughts or ideas because I know what I do online is being monitored,” and 80 percent report being “more careful about what I search online when I know what I do online is being monitored.” We can review recent past high-profile, surveillance-oriented regimes like Nazi Germany, or the McCarthy-era Red Scare and Cold War. There is a multitude of personal accounts from that era, where anyone of note had to be extremely careful about what was said, to whom and where. Over and over throughout history, good things, like giving shelter to persecuted refugees or slaves, has been considered illegal. Citizens were told to snitch on one another. If drones were available then, you'd have seen them in every single nook and cranny. Politicians today wear nice, pressed suits and often conduct themselves pleasantly. But only a fool would buy into their brand of symbolic mind control. The reality is that many governments today are as evil as ever due to the scale and population today. And the ones that aren't, are in danger of becoming authoritarian. Authoritarian and populist movements have been sweeping through the West. Any technology we implement today represents codified procedure, whether codified in law or not. And that codified procedure will absolutely be used to enforce an arbitrary morality as defined by the incumbent party. We've seen this for a century with cannabis and the global war on drugs. We see this now with abortion, where citizens in Texas are encouraged to snitch on women who seek abortions. So looking forward, we can avoid hypotheticals while pointing to clear patterns in history, for those who need empirical evidence. We can also just establish self-consistent, ethical political frameworks which disqualify such unwarranted mass surveillance, simply on the grounds that regimes can change while codified procedure can be repurposed, and that mass surveillance erodes trust, without even needing to point to past atrocities and compromised governments. Happy to discuss further if this doesn't satisfy you. I can also draw from my own life experiences living under surveillance and child abuse, and the extreme chilling effect it caused, if you want anecdotal data.
LinuxBender 2y ago
I've been curious about this. Are there leaked LPR databases that can be integrated with NVR's like Zoneminder, Shinobi, Blue Iris, Frigate and such? I know that some of them can read license plates but that's not entirely useful without an actual database of plates behind it. i.e. DMV, associated NCIC data, etc... As many times DMV's in many states have leaked data I would assume this must be a thing.

soulofmischief 2y ago

Yes, and it's actually pretty rampant in my own current city, it's been a huge sore point for years with activists. The chilling effect is that resistance becomes that much harder as the authoritarian ratchet tightens. When the movements of people can be tracked en masse via some panopticon, it is very easy to prevent them from organizing into any real threat against the incumbent. Here's an example from just last month in my city: https://www.wbrz.com/news/license-plate-readers-popping-up-at-mall-of-louisiana/ https://www.wbrz.com/news/license-plate-readers-popping-up-a... Crime, etc. are always the reason given. But my city has repeatedly shown they cannot be trusted with these kinds of powers. Here's more information from the ACLU on this exact topic: https://www.aclu.org/news/national-security/chilling-effects-license-plate-location-tracking https://www.aclu.org/news/national-security/chilling-effects... > Knowing or suspecting that we're being watched can stop us from engaging in certain kinds of behavior, even when it's perfectly lawful. For example, it might affect our decision to go to a certain barber (what would my other barber say?), meet up with a friend (what would my mom say?), eat at a restaurant (what would my trainer say?), or take the scenic route (is it suspicious that I'm not using my normal route?) Keep in mind that just a few decades ago we had the Red Scare. We harassed and ruined the lives of people over thoughtcrime, for simply supporting the notion of alternate economies or just accepting those who did. Imagine the scope of that if we'd had the surveillance network that we do today. And there is no indication that we won't have a similar event in the near future. Lastly, I know your question is in good faith and thank you for asking for clarification. That said, it's important to consider that manufactured normality isn't a valid reason to not question authority. It's quite easy for Corpgov to do anything at scale long enough that new generations are born into it and wholly accept it without question. All expressions of governmental authority must be constantly challenged and defended, and any possibility of chilling effects should be investigated thoroughly, time and again. This is our duty as The People, the fourth branch of the government. This is the critical check and balance which keeps things from becoming irrecoverably fucked.

AtlasBarfed 2y ago
People need to understand the danger of the current surveillance infrastructure. Turnkey totalitarianism. Totalitarian control is turnkey in America if the "wrong guy" gets in. It's funny because the voters aren't demanding limits, and yet each election cycle is life or death not just because of the he escalating propaganda... I think voters know that we are close to total oppression, on a subconscious fear level. Whether in the next four or forty years, someone will do it.
try_the_bass 2y ago
None of this is evidence of the "chilling effect" you claimed and were just asked about, though? You realize you're just moving the goalposts, right?
- soulofmischief 2y ago
  I'm sorry, which part of my post did you have trouble with? I can try to break it down for you further until you understand. What do you perceive to be the moved goalposts here?
  - try_the_bass 2y ago
    I guess I was expecting some concrete examples of this chilling effect you spoke of? Your comment only refers to things in the hypothetical, before diverging off into other related topics. Do you have any actual examples of "resistance" that have been stifled by this "chilling effect"? I understand your hypotheticals and the point you're making, but we can conjure hypotheticals for any situation or context, all without any specific relationship to truth.
    - soulofmischief 2y ago
      Well, it's not a hypothetical to say that surveillance leads to reduced non-conventional civic participation and reduces the ability for citizens to safely engage in protest. We can look at contemporary research of highly surveilled institutions: https://cdt.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Student-Activity-Monitoring-Software-Research-Insights-and-Recommendations.pdf https://cdt.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Student-Activity-... > Of students who indicate that their school uses monitoring software, many report a chilling effect on their behavior and self-expression online — six in ten students agree with the statement, “I do not share my true thoughts or ideas because I know what I do online is being monitored,” and 80 percent report being “more careful about what I search online when I know what I do online is being monitored.” We can review recent past high-profile, surveillance-oriented regimes like Nazi Germany, or the McCarthy-era Red Scare and Cold War. There is a multitude of personal accounts from that era, where anyone of note had to be extremely careful about what was said, to whom and where. Over and over throughout history, good things, like giving shelter to persecuted refugees or slaves, has been considered illegal. Citizens were told to snitch on one another. If drones were available then, you'd have seen them in every single nook and cranny. Politicians today wear nice, pressed suits and often conduct themselves pleasantly. But only a fool would buy into their brand of symbolic mind control. The reality is that many governments today are as evil as ever due to the scale and population today. And the ones that aren't, are in danger of becoming authoritarian. Authoritarian and populist movements have been sweeping through the West. Any technology we implement today represents codified procedure, whether codified in law or not. And that codified procedure will absolutely be used to enforce an arbitrary morality as defined by the incumbent party. We've seen this for a century with cannabis and the global war on drugs. We see this now with abortion, where citizens in Texas are encouraged to snitch on women who seek abortions. So looking forward, we can avoid hypotheticals while pointing to clear patterns in history, for those who need empirical evidence. We can also just establish self-consistent, ethical political frameworks which disqualify such unwarranted mass surveillance, simply on the grounds that regimes can change while codified procedure can be repurposed, and that mass surveillance erodes trust, without even needing to point to past atrocities and compromised governments. Happy to discuss further if this doesn't satisfy you. I can also draw from my own life experiences living under surveillance and child abuse, and the extreme chilling effect it caused, if you want anecdotal data.

LinuxBender 2y ago

I've been curious about this. Are there leaked LPR databases that can be integrated with NVR's like Zoneminder, Shinobi, Blue Iris, Frigate and such? I know that some of them can read license plates but that's not entirely useful without an actual database of plates behind it. i.e. DMV, associated NCIC data, etc... As many times DMV's in many states have leaked data I would assume this must be a thing.