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Not to sound like an Islamophobe, but outside of strict adherents to Islam, which immigrant groups don't "want" to assimilate to a sufficient degree for your ta

Not to sound like an Islamophobe, but outside of strict adherents to Islam, which immigrant groups don't "want" to assimilate to a sufficient degree for your tastes? I understand that much of Europe receives primarily Muslim migrants and that those immigrants can be seen as culturally incompatible. But my take is that, given the overwhelming appeal of migrating to wealthy nations, it should be possible to design system that deters the most staunchly conservative/religious migrants in favor of people more compatible with Western norms. I'd imagine this is not done explicitly at least in part due to the Western compulsion to not appear/act in ways that are discriminatory towards religious beliefs. But as an American, I have seen too many thousands of up close examples of 2nd and 3rd gen immigrants (and beyond) who may look Filipino or Lebanese or Mexican or Pakistani but are in every way as American as the average American of Anglo/German/French/etc ancestry.

jiggawatts 2y ago
> most staunchly conservative/religious migrants in favor of That was my first thought as well, but it turns out that an interesting quirk of being an expat in a country with a different religion is that most such groups will essentially "double down" on their own belief. Essentially back at their home country they felt comfortable with a minimal, token faith because they were immersed in it anyway, but away from it they feel their ethnic identity "under attack" and hence they cling more strongly to certain aspects of it.
- standardUser 2y ago
  There's the opposite trend too, wherein the risk-takers who are willing to uproot themselves from their traditional societies and forge new lives in a new world are not particularly devoted to tradition. And even when they are, there's the secondary trend where their children have little connection to that old world and are enamored by the new one they've grown up in. The big exception I see to this is among asylum groups who start new lives not for ambition or adventure or hope, but out of fear and necessity, sometimes entirely against their will. And though my Western guilt hates to restate it, the assimilation-adverse trend seems to be strongest among strict adherents to Islam.
master_crab 2y ago
Not to sound like an Islamophobe… Proceeds to sound like an Islamophobe. I’d suggest extrapolating a bit. It’s not an issue with Muslims, it’s an issue with strict adherence to a religious code. Visit Williamsburg in New York or rural Pennsylvania and you’ll find other religions that are painfully incapable of integrating (Orthodox Jews and the Amish, respectively).
- aguaviva 2y ago
  Visit Williamsburg in New York or rural Pennsylvania and you’ll find other religions that are painfully incapable of integrating Incapable, no. They simply choose not to integrate. And to not give a fuck about what the dominant culture says about this choice.
- standardUser 2y ago
  Absolutely, and that's why I'm worried about sounding like an Islamophobe and not being one. The issue is obviously (to me) one of strict religious orthodoxy, not specific religious affiliation. The problem being that there is only a single major immigrant group with strict religious orthodoxy and it happens to be Muslim. If Amish or Mormon fundamentalists were immigrating to my country in large numbers I would have the exact same concern.
  - master_crab 2y ago
    There are other large immigrant groups that arent Muslim and also have issues integrating. Also, many Muslim immigrants have varying degrees of orthodoxy. I’d say another part of the problem lies with the fact that Europeans tend to be pretty racist and insular group (and definitely so when compared to how they envision themselves). They complain about everything from Roma to West Africans (many of whom are not Muslim) moving to their countries. Hell, the Portuguese complain about Brazilians moving to their country and stealing their language with their slang. Of course it’s all relative. Europeans are most definitely more welcoming than say the Japanese.
    - smusamashah 2y ago

jiggawatts 2y ago

> most staunchly conservative/religious migrants in favor of That was my first thought as well, but it turns out that an interesting quirk of being an expat in a country with a different religion is that most such groups will essentially "double down" on their own belief. Essentially back at their home country they felt comfortable with a minimal, token faith because they were immersed in it anyway, but away from it they feel their ethnic identity "under attack" and hence they cling more strongly to certain aspects of it.

standardUser 2y ago
There's the opposite trend too, wherein the risk-takers who are willing to uproot themselves from their traditional societies and forge new lives in a new world are not particularly devoted to tradition. And even when they are, there's the secondary trend where their children have little connection to that old world and are enamored by the new one they've grown up in. The big exception I see to this is among asylum groups who start new lives not for ambition or adventure or hope, but out of fear and necessity, sometimes entirely against their will. And though my Western guilt hates to restate it, the assimilation-adverse trend seems to be strongest among strict adherents to Islam.

master_crab 2y ago

Not to sound like an Islamophobe… Proceeds to sound like an Islamophobe. I’d suggest extrapolating a bit. It’s not an issue with Muslims, it’s an issue with strict adherence to a religious code. Visit Williamsburg in New York or rural Pennsylvania and you’ll find other religions that are painfully incapable of integrating (Orthodox Jews and the Amish, respectively).

aguaviva 2y ago
Visit Williamsburg in New York or rural Pennsylvania and you’ll find other religions that are painfully incapable of integrating Incapable, no. They simply choose not to integrate. And to not give a fuck about what the dominant culture says about this choice.
standardUser 2y ago
Absolutely, and that's why I'm worried about sounding like an Islamophobe and not being one. The issue is obviously (to me) one of strict religious orthodoxy, not specific religious affiliation. The problem being that there is only a single major immigrant group with strict religious orthodoxy and it happens to be Muslim. If Amish or Mormon fundamentalists were immigrating to my country in large numbers I would have the exact same concern.
- master_crab 2y ago
  There are other large immigrant groups that arent Muslim and also have issues integrating. Also, many Muslim immigrants have varying degrees of orthodoxy. I’d say another part of the problem lies with the fact that Europeans tend to be pretty racist and insular group (and definitely so when compared to how they envision themselves). They complain about everything from Roma to West Africans (many of whom are not Muslim) moving to their countries. Hell, the Portuguese complain about Brazilians moving to their country and stealing their language with their slang. Of course it’s all relative. Europeans are most definitely more welcoming than say the Japanese.
  - smusamashah 2y ago