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> An important component is solving parent entitlement as well. They are stakeholders, not customers. Only in public schools. At private schools, they are cust

> An important component is solving parent entitlement as well. They are stakeholders, not customers. Only in public schools. At private schools, they are customers, and paradoxically the concomitant “entitlement” is not a bug, but a feature

toomuchtodo 2y ago
Private school cohort is a minority, and those kids in the aggregate will do well because of their parents’ wealth, income, and time available. Private school teachers typically are compensated appropriately and empowered as well (as opposed to public teachers who are not). Managing expectations, but also realistic expectations. (home/virtual school two kids under 10 in our family, my observations and perspective from interacting with both public and private schools and the parents there, ymmv)
- airstrike 2y ago
  The student-to-teacher ratio there is also wildly different. For example, it's 4:1 at one school in New York[1] vs. the 15:1 national average (it's 12:1 in New York) [1]: https://www.stbernards.org/about-us/faculty--staff https://www.stbernards.org/about-us/faculty--staff [2]: https://usafacts.org/data/topics/people-society/education/k-12-education/student-to-teacher-ratio-public/ https://usafacts.org/data/topics/people-society/education/k-...
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    I strongly agree that ratios are a component in student success. Regardless, if parents are not meeting their burden as stakeholders, student success is incredibly challenging. This applies across income strata. TLDR “Do you value education and model that for your children?” (broadly speaking) My apologies this was a long journey to the thesis. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2973328/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2973328/ https://touroscholar.touro.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1031&context=gse_pubs https://touroscholar.touro.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1... (page 6)
- polygon87 2y ago
  Anecdotal but I went to a fancy NYC private school (on financial aid) and what I heard was the teachers actually got paid less than public school teachers + lacked the union protections and whatnot. But it was worth it for the nicer environment and dealing with motivated students with parental pressure behind them. Although you could make money in extra ways by networking with students for $300/hr SAT tutoring and such.
  - lazyasciiart 2y ago
    Yes, my friend is a teacher in WA and taught in private and public schools; that matches her experience.
  - balderdash 2y ago
    That was true, I believe though that they also didn’t have to do as much certification, but were also often better pedigreed (e.g. the math teacher may not have done a teacher prep program or been certified, but held a masters degree in math from a prestigious university)
- yndoendo 2y ago
  I think you are a little bit behind the times with current private/ charter schools. Charter School does not mean wealthy parents, it means non-public alternative that takes the public tax dollars and turns them private. Private/ charter schools work off the fallacy that smaller school means better performance. They exploit the law of small numbers to support the fallacy. There will be one or two schools that do well while 1000 do not. Those that promote charter schools only talk about the two doing well as their example of why charter is good and pretend the other 1000 don't exist. "Thinking, Fast and Slow", by Daniel Kahneman has a quick talk about this. Simple probability proves small / private schools are not good. Where are you more likely to find a mentor, in a school with 10 teachers or 200 teachers? Where are you more likely to find a friend, in a school with 50 or 5000 people? Where are you more likely to find a doctor, in a restaurant with 5 or 500 people? Where are you more likely to find a great walking stick, on the beach or in a forest? There are less financial regulations and requirements for monetary rules with private than public. Those that run private schools exploit this for personal financial gain. "Education entrepreneurs" that can get a company car and use other tax evasive actions versus focusing on the education of the next generations.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    I cannot speak to charter schools, I have no experience with them, only public and private (no vouchers accepted, some financial aid available depending on income).
  - lofenfew 2y ago
    > Where are you more likely to find a mentor, in a school with 10 teachers or 200 teachers? Where are you more likely to find a friend, in a school with 50 or 5000 people? This is such nonsense. Beyond a certain (very low) number, the number of people at the school doesn't help you with those things, because you can only meet so many people. You have classes with a fixed number of teachers, and a fixed number of students in each class. Furthermore, it's usually roughly the same cohort in each class. So even at a school of 5000 people, you only productively meet a small fraction anyways. Besides that, the premise is seemingly that a good school is one where you can find a maximally good mentor and friend. But schools are for teaching things, so ensuring you can find a slightly better mentor or friend at best marginally improves the school as a school. If the charter school is better than a public school in some other dimension, then that will surely overshadow this miniscule effect. You've seemingly borrowed an argument for larger cities and applied it to schools without understanding it. If I am lacking something in a small town, I either put up with it, or move to another town where I will surely lack something else. If I lack something at a school, I have the choice to switch schools to one where I am better provided for (assuming I'm given that option) or find something to supplement that lack outside of school (say a club, sports team, etc).
bdangubic 2y ago
except customer is not always right at private schools, the school makes the rules, you get to sign the agreement and then pay a bunch of money and the stfu. my kid goes to private school, no electronics of any kind are allowed. over the years many parents bitched about it which went as good as you can imagine - “there are many other options for your child’s education…”
- ipaddr 2y ago
  You have to get all the parents onboard and have other options.
  - bdangubic 2y ago
    absofuckinglutely NOT. parents are fucking idiots. you start asking parents shit and you end up with “oh this book should not be in the library.” the way it should work (and it does in many private schools I scouted for my kid) is that school sets the rules, you sign the rulebook - end of the story. no discussion and 1,000,000% no parent involvement of ANY kind
arrowsmith 2y ago
If I could afford to send my kids to private school, I would happily pay a premium for a school with a strict anti-phone-policy. Not least because I’d want to find a place where the other parents are on the same side as me on this issue.

toomuchtodo 2y ago

Private school cohort is a minority, and those kids in the aggregate will do well because of their parents’ wealth, income, and time available. Private school teachers typically are compensated appropriately and empowered as well (as opposed to public teachers who are not). Managing expectations, but also realistic expectations. (home/virtual school two kids under 10 in our family, my observations and perspective from interacting with both public and private schools and the parents there, ymmv)

airstrike 2y ago
The student-to-teacher ratio there is also wildly different. For example, it's 4:1 at one school in New York[1] vs. the 15:1 national average (it's 12:1 in New York) [1]: https://www.stbernards.org/about-us/faculty--staff https://www.stbernards.org/about-us/faculty--staff [2]: https://usafacts.org/data/topics/people-society/education/k-12-education/student-to-teacher-ratio-public/ https://usafacts.org/data/topics/people-society/education/k-...
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  I strongly agree that ratios are a component in student success. Regardless, if parents are not meeting their burden as stakeholders, student success is incredibly challenging. This applies across income strata. TLDR “Do you value education and model that for your children?” (broadly speaking) My apologies this was a long journey to the thesis. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2973328/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2973328/ https://touroscholar.touro.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1031&context=gse_pubs https://touroscholar.touro.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1... (page 6)
polygon87 2y ago
Anecdotal but I went to a fancy NYC private school (on financial aid) and what I heard was the teachers actually got paid less than public school teachers + lacked the union protections and whatnot. But it was worth it for the nicer environment and dealing with motivated students with parental pressure behind them. Although you could make money in extra ways by networking with students for $300/hr SAT tutoring and such.
- lazyasciiart 2y ago
  Yes, my friend is a teacher in WA and taught in private and public schools; that matches her experience.
- balderdash 2y ago
  That was true, I believe though that they also didn’t have to do as much certification, but were also often better pedigreed (e.g. the math teacher may not have done a teacher prep program or been certified, but held a masters degree in math from a prestigious university)
yndoendo 2y ago
I think you are a little bit behind the times with current private/ charter schools. Charter School does not mean wealthy parents, it means non-public alternative that takes the public tax dollars and turns them private. Private/ charter schools work off the fallacy that smaller school means better performance. They exploit the law of small numbers to support the fallacy. There will be one or two schools that do well while 1000 do not. Those that promote charter schools only talk about the two doing well as their example of why charter is good and pretend the other 1000 don't exist. "Thinking, Fast and Slow", by Daniel Kahneman has a quick talk about this. Simple probability proves small / private schools are not good. Where are you more likely to find a mentor, in a school with 10 teachers or 200 teachers? Where are you more likely to find a friend, in a school with 50 or 5000 people? Where are you more likely to find a doctor, in a restaurant with 5 or 500 people? Where are you more likely to find a great walking stick, on the beach or in a forest? There are less financial regulations and requirements for monetary rules with private than public. Those that run private schools exploit this for personal financial gain. "Education entrepreneurs" that can get a company car and use other tax evasive actions versus focusing on the education of the next generations.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  I cannot speak to charter schools, I have no experience with them, only public and private (no vouchers accepted, some financial aid available depending on income).
- lofenfew 2y ago
  > Where are you more likely to find a mentor, in a school with 10 teachers or 200 teachers? Where are you more likely to find a friend, in a school with 50 or 5000 people? This is such nonsense. Beyond a certain (very low) number, the number of people at the school doesn't help you with those things, because you can only meet so many people. You have classes with a fixed number of teachers, and a fixed number of students in each class. Furthermore, it's usually roughly the same cohort in each class. So even at a school of 5000 people, you only productively meet a small fraction anyways. Besides that, the premise is seemingly that a good school is one where you can find a maximally good mentor and friend. But schools are for teaching things, so ensuring you can find a slightly better mentor or friend at best marginally improves the school as a school. If the charter school is better than a public school in some other dimension, then that will surely overshadow this miniscule effect. You've seemingly borrowed an argument for larger cities and applied it to schools without understanding it. If I am lacking something in a small town, I either put up with it, or move to another town where I will surely lack something else. If I lack something at a school, I have the choice to switch schools to one where I am better provided for (assuming I'm given that option) or find something to supplement that lack outside of school (say a club, sports team, etc).

bdangubic 2y ago

except customer is not always right at private schools, the school makes the rules, you get to sign the agreement and then pay a bunch of money and the stfu. my kid goes to private school, no electronics of any kind are allowed. over the years many parents bitched about it which went as good as you can imagine - “there are many other options for your child’s education…”

ipaddr 2y ago
You have to get all the parents onboard and have other options.
- bdangubic 2y ago
  absofuckinglutely NOT. parents are fucking idiots. you start asking parents shit and you end up with “oh this book should not be in the library.” the way it should work (and it does in many private schools I scouted for my kid) is that school sets the rules, you sign the rulebook - end of the story. no discussion and 1,000,000% no parent involvement of ANY kind

arrowsmith 2y ago

If I could afford to send my kids to private school, I would happily pay a premium for a school with a strict anti-phone-policy. Not least because I’d want to find a place where the other parents are on the same side as me on this issue.