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I feel like giving teachers and schools more freedoms to implement these things would be a great overall effect. We've seen a large reduction of what teachers

by m00x 2y ago

I feel like giving teachers and schools more freedoms to implement these things would be a great overall effect. We've seen a large reduction of what teachers are able to do in the last few decades because the school districts have continuously pushed bad policies to protect them against liability and extra work. My parents were both in the school system and every year they would get more rules to protect the district by pushing more work onto them. The school system has a lot of similarities to have Boeing has been run recently. The board and admins make all the decisions while the people who deliver the value get the short end of the stick.

toomuchtodo 2y ago
An important component is solving parent entitlement as well. They are stakeholders, not customers. (~1600 school districts across 24 states in the US are on 4 day weeks to attempt to retain teachers)
- hammock 2y ago
  > An important component is solving parent entitlement as well. They are stakeholders, not customers. Only in public schools. At private schools, they are customers, and paradoxically the concomitant “entitlement” is not a bug, but a feature
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    Private school cohort is a minority, and those kids in the aggregate will do well because of their parents’ wealth, income, and time available. Private school teachers typically are compensated appropriately and empowered as well (as opposed to public teachers who are not). Managing expectations, but also realistic expectations. (home/virtual school two kids under 10 in our family, my observations and perspective from interacting with both public and private schools and the parents there, ymmv)
    - airstrike 2y ago
      The student-to-teacher ratio there is also wildly different. For example, it's 4:1 at one school in New York[1] vs. the 15:1 national average (it's 12:1 in New York) [1]: https://www.stbernards.org/about-us/faculty--staff https://www.stbernards.org/about-us/faculty--staff [2]: https://usafacts.org/data/topics/people-society/education/k-12-education/student-to-teacher-ratio-public/ https://usafacts.org/data/topics/people-society/education/k-...
      - toomuchtodo 2y ago
        I strongly agree that ratios are a component in student success. Regardless, if parents are not meeting their burden as stakeholders, student success is incredibly challenging. This applies across income strata. TLDR “Do you value education and model that for your children?” (broadly speaking) My apologies this was a long journey to the thesis. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2973328/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2973328/ https://touroscholar.touro.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1031&context=gse_pubs https://touroscholar.touro.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1... (page 6)
    - polygon87 2y ago
      Anecdotal but I went to a fancy NYC private school (on financial aid) and what I heard was the teachers actually got paid less than public school teachers + lacked the union protections and whatnot. But it was worth it for the nicer environment and dealing with motivated students with parental pressure behind them. Although you could make money in extra ways by networking with students for $300/hr SAT tutoring and such.
      - lazyasciiart 2y ago
        Yes, my friend is a teacher in WA and taught in private and public schools; that matches her experience.
      - balderdash 2y ago
        That was true, I believe though that they also didn’t have to do as much certification, but were also often better pedigreed (e.g. the math teacher may not have done a teacher prep program or been certified, but held a masters degree in math from a prestigious university)
  - bdangubic 2y ago
    except customer is not always right at private schools, the school makes the rules, you get to sign the agreement and then pay a bunch of money and the stfu. my kid goes to private school, no electronics of any kind are allowed. over the years many parents bitched about it which went as good as you can imagine - “there are many other options for your child’s education…”
    - ipaddr 2y ago
      You have to get all the parents onboard and have other options.
      - bdangubic 2y ago
        absofuckinglutely NOT. parents are fucking idiots. you start asking parents shit and you end up with “oh this book should not be in the library.” the way it should work (and it does in many private schools I scouted for my kid) is that school sets the rules, you sign the rulebook - end of the story. no discussion and 1,000,000% no parent involvement of ANY kind
  - arrowsmith 2y ago
    If I could afford to send my kids to private school, I would happily pay a premium for a school with a strict anti-phone-policy. Not least because I’d want to find a place where the other parents are on the same side as me on this issue.
- gus_massa 2y ago
  What happens if both parents work?
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    You do the best you can, but you’re likely setup for failure. As a parent in the trenches, I do not recommend children to anyone who is not fully prepared and informed for twenty years of a form of hardship. https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/parents-under-pressure.pdf https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/parents-under-pressu...
    - gus_massa 2y ago
      I was asking about the 4 day class week. It makes it very hard to have two working parents. (Also note that the 20 years is only an optimistic lower bound.)
      - toomuchtodo 2y ago
        Ahh, my apologies. With regards to the 4 day week, parents are exposed to additional childcare costs I presume. The perils of having children in a macro that considers them a luxury good, and is unwilling to subsidize daycare nor pay teachers more. If you go into it knowing you’re going to suffer (cannot afford daycare, childcare, etc), that’s a choice. > Also note that the 20 years is only an optimistic lower bound. Strongly agree.
Sajarin 2y ago
Blaming the “system” is easy but is it the whole picture? How much of it is due to culture? Teachers in western countries are not as respected as teachers in other parts of the world. A few teachers abuse their authority and that results in outrage and lawsuits from parents, rightfully so. I can imagine in many schools in the US, if a cellphone ban were to be implemented, there would be a large outcry from parents on how restrictive or overreaching that policy would be. Even if the net positives (as shown in the article) are proven to outweigh the pragmatic concerns (i.e I might need to be in communication with my child) why take the risk? Not to be supporter of “the man” but it seems unfair to point the finger at a system that takes steps to preserve itself without also acknowledging the hostile environment in which it operates. Parents have greater zeal in suing the school than they have in attending open board meetings.
- threeseed 2y ago
  I wouldn't group all Western countries together. The US has always been unique in having a very libertarian, freedom at all costs culture. For example in Australia we have recently banned children from using social networks and this was supported by about 80% of the population.
  - graemep 2y ago
    Is there no resistance to things like having to adult having to prove their age to social networks? How is that going to be done, BTW?
    - threeseed 2y ago
      The same way it has been done for years when you sign up for a mobile plan etc. You verify your age using either passport, driver's license, digital ID etc. There are plenty of services that provide this.
      - graemep 2y ago
        So you have to show your ID to social networks. Very intrusive.
bawolff 2y ago
We're talking about banning cell phones all day (not just during school hours). I don't think teachers should control what kids do outside of school. Teachers aren't parents (or jailers).
blitzar 2y ago
> giving teachers and schools more freedoms Sounds like socialism (/s)

by m00x 2y ago

toomuchtodo 2y ago

An important component is solving parent entitlement as well. They are stakeholders, not customers. (~1600 school districts across 24 states in the US are on 4 day weeks to attempt to retain teachers)

hammock 2y ago
> An important component is solving parent entitlement as well. They are stakeholders, not customers. Only in public schools. At private schools, they are customers, and paradoxically the concomitant “entitlement” is not a bug, but a feature
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  Private school cohort is a minority, and those kids in the aggregate will do well because of their parents’ wealth, income, and time available. Private school teachers typically are compensated appropriately and empowered as well (as opposed to public teachers who are not). Managing expectations, but also realistic expectations. (home/virtual school two kids under 10 in our family, my observations and perspective from interacting with both public and private schools and the parents there, ymmv)
  - airstrike 2y ago
    The student-to-teacher ratio there is also wildly different. For example, it's 4:1 at one school in New York[1] vs. the 15:1 national average (it's 12:1 in New York) [1]: https://www.stbernards.org/about-us/faculty--staff https://www.stbernards.org/about-us/faculty--staff [2]: https://usafacts.org/data/topics/people-society/education/k-12-education/student-to-teacher-ratio-public/ https://usafacts.org/data/topics/people-society/education/k-...
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      I strongly agree that ratios are a component in student success. Regardless, if parents are not meeting their burden as stakeholders, student success is incredibly challenging. This applies across income strata. TLDR “Do you value education and model that for your children?” (broadly speaking) My apologies this was a long journey to the thesis. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2973328/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2973328/ https://touroscholar.touro.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1031&context=gse_pubs https://touroscholar.touro.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1... (page 6)
  - polygon87 2y ago
    Anecdotal but I went to a fancy NYC private school (on financial aid) and what I heard was the teachers actually got paid less than public school teachers + lacked the union protections and whatnot. But it was worth it for the nicer environment and dealing with motivated students with parental pressure behind them. Although you could make money in extra ways by networking with students for $300/hr SAT tutoring and such.
    - lazyasciiart 2y ago
      Yes, my friend is a teacher in WA and taught in private and public schools; that matches her experience.
    - balderdash 2y ago
      That was true, I believe though that they also didn’t have to do as much certification, but were also often better pedigreed (e.g. the math teacher may not have done a teacher prep program or been certified, but held a masters degree in math from a prestigious university)
- bdangubic 2y ago
  except customer is not always right at private schools, the school makes the rules, you get to sign the agreement and then pay a bunch of money and the stfu. my kid goes to private school, no electronics of any kind are allowed. over the years many parents bitched about it which went as good as you can imagine - “there are many other options for your child’s education…”
  - ipaddr 2y ago
    You have to get all the parents onboard and have other options.
    - bdangubic 2y ago
      absofuckinglutely NOT. parents are fucking idiots. you start asking parents shit and you end up with “oh this book should not be in the library.” the way it should work (and it does in many private schools I scouted for my kid) is that school sets the rules, you sign the rulebook - end of the story. no discussion and 1,000,000% no parent involvement of ANY kind
- arrowsmith 2y ago
  If I could afford to send my kids to private school, I would happily pay a premium for a school with a strict anti-phone-policy. Not least because I’d want to find a place where the other parents are on the same side as me on this issue.
gus_massa 2y ago
What happens if both parents work?
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  You do the best you can, but you’re likely setup for failure. As a parent in the trenches, I do not recommend children to anyone who is not fully prepared and informed for twenty years of a form of hardship. https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/parents-under-pressure.pdf https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/parents-under-pressu...
  - gus_massa 2y ago
    I was asking about the 4 day class week. It makes it very hard to have two working parents. (Also note that the 20 years is only an optimistic lower bound.)
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      Ahh, my apologies. With regards to the 4 day week, parents are exposed to additional childcare costs I presume. The perils of having children in a macro that considers them a luxury good, and is unwilling to subsidize daycare nor pay teachers more. If you go into it knowing you’re going to suffer (cannot afford daycare, childcare, etc), that’s a choice. > Also note that the 20 years is only an optimistic lower bound. Strongly agree.

Sajarin 2y ago

Blaming the “system” is easy but is it the whole picture? How much of it is due to culture? Teachers in western countries are not as respected as teachers in other parts of the world. A few teachers abuse their authority and that results in outrage and lawsuits from parents, rightfully so. I can imagine in many schools in the US, if a cellphone ban were to be implemented, there would be a large outcry from parents on how restrictive or overreaching that policy would be. Even if the net positives (as shown in the article) are proven to outweigh the pragmatic concerns (i.e I might need to be in communication with my child) why take the risk? Not to be supporter of “the man” but it seems unfair to point the finger at a system that takes steps to preserve itself without also acknowledging the hostile environment in which it operates. Parents have greater zeal in suing the school than they have in attending open board meetings.

threeseed 2y ago
I wouldn't group all Western countries together. The US has always been unique in having a very libertarian, freedom at all costs culture. For example in Australia we have recently banned children from using social networks and this was supported by about 80% of the population.
- graemep 2y ago
  Is there no resistance to things like having to adult having to prove their age to social networks? How is that going to be done, BTW?
  - threeseed 2y ago
    The same way it has been done for years when you sign up for a mobile plan etc. You verify your age using either passport, driver's license, digital ID etc. There are plenty of services that provide this.
    - graemep 2y ago
      So you have to show your ID to social networks. Very intrusive.

bawolff 2y ago

We're talking about banning cell phones all day (not just during school hours). I don't think teachers should control what kids do outside of school. Teachers aren't parents (or jailers).

blitzar 2y ago

> giving teachers and schools more freedoms Sounds like socialism (/s)