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I guess I shouldn't be surprised at the negative reaction to this here. The HN demographic is presumably tilted towards young men. What those criticisms seem t

by cletus 14y ago

I guess I shouldn't be surprised at the negative reaction to this here. The HN demographic is presumably tilted towards young men. What those criticisms seem to be neglecting is that those--particularly for apartment buildings--these temporary visitors impact beyond just you. In Australia, for example, one useful metric used by people when assessing apartment buildings to buy in is to look at the ratio of owner-occupiers vs renters. Generally the more owner-occupiers, the better the building. Renters don't tend to look after properties, tend to be less mindful of behaviour that impacts the neighbours (parties, etc), etc. This goes even moreso for really short-term tenants. There have been examples of this already (like the woman who had her house trashed in SF after renting it out on AirBnB). Such extreme examples aside, you are raising the risk of damage or theft to the property of others by bringing a stream of strangers into your home. Yes most of the time it works out just fine but sometimes it doesn't and your neighbours didn't sign up for you opening a hotel. Would people feel the same way if someone was operating a brothel in their house or apartment? After all, it's their property and they can do with it as they please right? What about operating a bar or a club? This is not as one-sided as some suggest.

barmstrong 14y ago
You're right that short term renters change the value of a property, but you still have all your work ahead of you to show why it should actually be illegal (having the police come raid people). What you described is handled quite well by regular contracts between tenants/landlords. If a tenant signs a lease where short term rentals aren't allowed and violates it then they can be evicted, lose their deposit, etc. Similarly, landlords who don't allow it could face slightly lower rents by losing tenants who want more flexibility. In other words, it reaches a balance as people negotiate contracts. There is a big difference between violating a lease and making something illegal.
- tptacek 14y ago
  I think 'cletus is using "apartment" in its generic sense. There's no question that most leases are done on boilerplate contracts that forbid Airbnb-type arrangements, often by spelling out by name each of the occupants, but at the least almost invariably specifying that the landlord gets reasonable approval over any sublessor. I'm sure there are pinholes to be poked in this point but I think as a general rule of thumb we can stipulate: apartment renters cannot lawfully put their apartments up on Airbnb, and the simplest remedy to them doing so is indeed to evict and then sue them. But getting back to 'cletus point: focus your attention on those "apartments" we call "condos". If your association contracts are good, there are remedies for Airbnb abuse here too, but they're nowhere nearly as clean as the remedies for apartment renters. Or, here's another wrinkle: go back to the apartment rental scenario, but stipulate that the landlord doesn't care to assert their right to curb Airbnb abuse. What recourse do the other renters in the building have now? They probably do have some; for instance, they can break their lease. But this is messy.
drcube 14y ago
So, your argument is that no one should open bars ever? Unless the neighbors get to vote and agree on it? Who counts as a neighbor? (I understand "the city" represents the neighbors and passes zoning laws, etc. That this is currently the case doesn't make it right.) Yes, someone should be able to operate a brothel or bar on their own property. I don't see why this is even controversial, but for some reason it is incredibly so. If the neighbors don't like it, they can move. As long as the owner isn't physically harming anyone, they should be left alone on their own property. This whole argument is disingenuous, however, since the people complaining aren't neighbors, but hotels pissed off at having competition.
- scarmig 14y ago
  Well, the bar example is fairly interesting: in lots of localities, that's exactly how things work. This is one thing that leads to bar or nightlife districts in cities, as no other residential areas want to deal with the issues caused by bars. It is hotels complaining, for now, and I don't think anyone is taking the POV that we should respect their legally privileged position just because they already have it. But a lot of these and similar laws have existed for awhile, because various bad actors have abused short term renting in the past. And if Airbnb and similar setups become more widespread (as they're bound to do), we do want to have some legal framework to deal with issues as they arise.
gojomo 14y ago
All true, but the power of persistent online reputations can mitigate these negatives better than inflexible 20th-century-style regulations.
- hell0_th3r3 14y ago
  ever heard of astroturfing? after working on a listings site, i automatically assume 80% of ratings and reviews and astroturfed
  - njs12345 14y ago
    It's hardly rocket science to tell whether a review is astroturfing or not..
  - gojomo 14y ago
    It's different when every rating is gated by actual money-changing-hands-in-commerce, as with AirBNB, Uber, and similar. Further, with the overlay of a giant social network, you can rent your spot out only to people with whom you share some indirect but useful level of acquaintance. So you can ask before renting: "Is Mr. X an inconsiderate ass?" And Mr. X knows bad behavior can affect their reputation moreso than just via a semi-anonymous blurb on a website.
  - joebottherobot 14y ago
    That's not true. We take reputation extremely seriously. Unlike traditional listing sites, every review is tied to a financial transaction. Additionally, we have many other mechanisms in place to prevent astroturfing.
te_platt 14y ago
What you say is true and there are competing interests to be balanced. Still, it seems the pressure to disallow short term renting is coming from business interests rather than neighbor complaints.
danking00 14y ago
I'd like to focus solely on the issue of "your neighbours didn't sign up for you opening a hotel". Of course my neighbors have a right to not be unreasonably disturbed by my own existence. Most communities have noise violation laws and other citations for creating an undesirable atmosphere. The folks offering short-term rents are not excused from such laws. Why do we need new laws? If your neighbor's short-term tennats are loud assholes, make a noise complaint.
- rprasad 14y ago
  And what will that solve? In a day or two the tenants will be gone, replaced by other loud assholes. The complaint solves nothing, as the neighbor has no reason to punish the original assholes who have already left. The assholes problem is why we have restrictions against short-term leases in so many areas. (Most such restrictions predate AirBNB, despite what the article would have you believe.)
  - natrius 14y ago
    Don't fines solve this problem? The owner gets fined and either passes on the fine to the renter or pays it and has an incentive to police renters more thoroughly.
- rayiner 14y ago
  It's like saying: there is no need for zoning, if industrial activity creates noises/hazards, just sue! There is a place for piecemeal litigation of individual disputes. There is also a place for regulation and zoning to maintain order, especially in a large, tightly-packed city.
- eps 14y ago
  Noise issues are secondary to security and common area maintenance issues.
smokeyj 14y ago
So much text, so little substance. Let's sum up your arguments for why this is good. 1) HN wouldn't understand because they're young men 2) Value of property in an area can go down 3) Property can suffer damages 4) Rentals may inconvenience neighbors All these points can be overcome without eroding our property rights. While values of homes can go down, they can also go up. Property can be damaged, but it can also be insured. Rentals may inconvenience neighbors, but disturbing the peace is already a crime.
- huhtenberg 14y ago
  > Property can be damaged, but it can also be insured. You are missing the point. I don't want common property in my condo building to be damaged, period. It just spoils my day.
  - smokeyj 14y ago
    That's a private matter that should be determined by your contract. Can't tell if joking..
    - huhtenberg 14y ago
      I am not. The GP said that having too many renters increases the risk of property damage (which is very true), to which you replied (essentially) - why worry, let them damage, the insurance will pick the tab - to which I said that it's the actual damage, not the cost of repairs that is an issue.
      - smokeyj 14y ago
        Rules regarding the rental of private property to a private party is a private matter in my opinion. Private parties already regulate the user of communal property thru vehicles such as a HOA. If you have a condo then the HOA can decide if renting is appropriate. Having the government dictate how your property can be used is more disturbing than having to attend a HOA meeting. Sure, you might agree with this particular regulation, but how about when the other political party takes power and decides they want to use your property differently. No thank you.
ericabiz 14y ago
I'm female; I rent out my guest room on Airbnb. I have no idea what this has to do with gender. (NB: I own my house, do not live in an area with a HOA, and do not live in a city with an ordinance against short-term rentals.) I've also frequently stayed at other Airbnb properties and always had a pleasant experience. Here's the real issue: So many people say this industry needs regulation. I don't necessarily agree; I lean Libertarian and tend to think the market will take care of itself. I have an incentive to make my guests super happy because I know they will write bad reviews and my days making extra money via Airbnb will be over if I don't treat them well. Having said that, even if you do agree that the industry needs regulation, this isn't regulation! This is heavy-handed making an entrepreneurial venture illegal because of vested interests who are threatened by said entrepreneurial venture. As an entrepreneur and someone who's in favor of eliminating middlemen in general, I'm against this form of regulation. Airbnb issues 1099's to its customers, so I do pay taxes on the money I make from it. If the city wants me to get a license and inspections, I might also be okay with that. But I'm firmly against making this illegal, no matter what strawmen others might throw up. (Heck, there is a "Hotel Hell" show coming out in August here in the U.S. featuring Gordon Ramsay screaming at hotel owners who have cockroaches and bedbugs. I've certainly never had that sort of experience at an Airbnb rental.) As citizens, we have the right to make our own decisions. As a citizen and a voter, I hope we can start a campaign much like we did against SOPA and PIPA to help make sure our voices are heard. I'm sure these cities have heard plenty from hotels. Now it's our turn.
- tptacek 14y ago
  Municipalities aren't making this unlawful. Running unregulated unlicensed undocumented hotels has been illegal for decades. What you're asking is for people to engage in activism to overturn statutes and codes that every major city already has on the books. What statutes and codes do you propose to replace them with?
  - ericabiz 14y ago
    That is not what the article said. Here is the direct quote: "In 2010 New York passed a law requiring a minimum thirty-day stay for any rental in a residential building—in effect making shorter-term rentals, the bulk of the market, illegal."
tgrass 14y ago
I am a father, and I rent. Are my rights less (as proxied by my landlord) than my neighbor who owns an underwater house? [EDIT] When I go down to the polling station on election day, I assure you my rights are equal.
- sp332 14y ago
  edit OK I misunderstood. skip this post :) Yes, of course. Starting with the obvious, your landlord could just throw you out. Your agreement almost certainly prevents you from making significant changes to the structure of the building. You can't sell the property. Your rights are much, much less than your neighbor.
  - tgrass 14y ago
    "As proxied BY my landlord" I am speaking of my rights in the community, not to the property. That is, should there be a speed bump on the street, should a WalMart be allowed to build on the condemned lot around the corner.
    - sp332 14y ago
      I think it's still true that you have somewhat less rights since you're not (directly) paying the property taxes.
    - mseebach 14y ago
      Then you're moving into tautological territory. Those rights are held by your landlord. If he proxies them to you, then you have them, if he doesn't, you don't.
      - tgrass 14y ago
        I am thinking of instances where a landlord's interest are aligned with tenants generally. For instance, fighting neighborhoods who use political connections to oppose rental development in central city neighborhoods ("mini dorms"). Discrimination is discrimination. These are public neighborhoods. Protecting one's property value does not make discrimination noble or any less discriminatory.
mhurron 14y ago
> Would people feel the same way if someone was operating a brothel in their house or apartment? After all, it's their property and they can do with it as they please right? What about operating a bar or a club? That's the way you're going to go with it? Why don't you try it. You'll find that those issues are actually already handled by local laws in most places.
- blaines 14y ago
  Exactly, there's laws in place that already prohibit running a business out of a home. Specific business types and activities apply, for instance, you cannot start a farm unless it has been zoned accordingly. In addition some cities have limits on what type, and how many animals you keep on premises. On the contrary, it is typically acceptable to have a garden and sell your crop or have a chicken and sell it's eggs (say, at a farmers market).
nostromo 14y ago
You're forgetting that this problem is already solved by contract law. Tenants sign agreements not to rent out their units all the time. Home owner's associations often have rules against short-term rentals as well. If you don't like the idea of short-term rentals in your neighborhood or building, choose one protected by one of these types of contracts. In fact, they're so common, you probably already have such protections, even if you don't know it. The government making something illegal really should be the last resort for societal problems. I'm not convinced short-term rentals are really so harmful as to meet that threshold.
- muzz 14y ago
  If you own a single-family detached home, this is not likely to be the case (if there is no HOA).
- tptacek 14y ago
  What's the contract law remedy for a tenant in a building whose unscrupulous landlord has decided to dump his spare inventory onto Airbnb as an ad hoc hostel? Break the lease? Sue for moving costs and to recover the security deposite? What if you're rent-controlled and the landlord says "go ahead, break the lease! woohoo!"? What's the contract law remedy for unscrupulous businesspeople who buy entire buildings and convert them into Airbnb hostels? I've used and appreciated Airbnb, but I think 'cletus is ultimately right and threads like this have a hard time of seeing the (valid) other side of this issue.
  - Zak 14y ago
    What's the contract law remedy for a tenant in a building whose unscrupulous landlord has decided to dump his spare inventory onto Airbnb as an ad hoc hostel? One long-term solution that could emerge is for it to be common to have provisions in leases that forbid both tenants and landlords from doing such things. It might take a while for that to happen, but if what you describe becomes much of a problem, it's likely to happen. What if you're rent-controlled and the landlord says "go ahead, break the lease! woohoo!"? Then your bargaining power is reduced in exchange for your below-market rent. Sounds fair to me. What's the contract law remedy for unscrupulous businesspeople who buy entire buildings and convert them into Airbnb hostels? That's a slightly different issue. I don't think this is necessarily unscrupulous to do this, but there's certainly a potential for externalities.
tsieling 14y ago
What does gender have to do with opinions about whether someone should be able to rent out a room in a building they own? Renters don't tend to look after properties. No, that's why it's called rent and they have property managers or landlords who have that responsibility. That said, I've been in my rented place for 12yrs and take good care of it, as do other tenants in our building. Myth busted. How would I feel if someone opened a brothel? Not great, but then AirBnB doesn't really cater to brothel operations, and those don't usually fly by night so what point that is supposed to make other than setting up a BS false dichotomy (restrict renting or live with the sex trade next door). Bars and clubs are regulated by zoning, so how would that ever happen? The point is that a scummy hotel industry is trying to hedge out competition by using deep pockets to lobby local government into reinforcing their monopoly. Making apologies for them puts you against people like the guy in the article: hard times, tries to make a few extra bucks and gets shut down by the five cops at his door. Sound like America to you? Sound like he was opening a brothel? Look him in his unemployed eye and call the cops on him while you do.
- hell0_th3r3 14y ago
  they don't "own" the property and the word "owner" does not appear on anyone's deed (don't believe me? go read your own) you are a tenant on the land, and your deed says this. the county is the owner.
  - rprasad 14y ago
    I think you need to reread your deed, or move off of Section 8 housing. My deed explicitly states that I am the owner of my condo, as well as a % of the building and land on which the condo resides.
    - hell0_th3r3 14y ago
      you have a condo agreement., not a deed. your condo building owner has a deed. ask a lawyer
- excuse-me 14y ago
larrys 14y ago
"Generally the more owner-occupiers, the better the building." Same from my experience on the east coast. I will assume that's universal. "Renters don't tend to look after properties, tend to be less mindful of behaviour that impacts the neighbours (parties, etc), etc." Once again true from my experience. And here we aren't even talking about longer term rentals. We are talking about days and the fact that you could literally have 50 to 200 different occupants per year greatly increasing the chance statistically that there would be some people who might cause problems. "you are raising the risk of damage or theft to the property of others by bringing a stream of strangers into your home." Iirc, while the Fred Wilson emails with PG regarding airbnb didn't reveal this I feel that this fear of strangers and what they can do played into his thinking as far as not wanting to invest in airbnb. It was my gut immediate reaction. Edit: http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2011/03/17/fred-wilson-offers-rare-glimpse-into-one-that-got-away/ http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2011/03/17/fred-wilson-o...
- tptacek 14y ago
  And remember, in those mails, the idea being discussed was the risk to the apartment owner of having their stuff owned. But in many NYC buildings --- including the NYC ABNB rentals I've had --- access to the apartment includes access to the front gate and the front door; in other words, it creates additional access to the apartments of every renter in the building, whether or not they themselves have opted in to Airbnb.
  - larrys 14y ago
    "the apartment owner of having their stuff owned" By the way there is also the chance of the renter having their things owned. If I stay at a hotel there is at least some control over who can enter my room and presumably key card logs, as well as videos showing access (and a safe in the room). While this does not provide absolute security obviously, I feel more safe leaving my laptop in a hotel room then in someone's apartment where anyone (old friend or perhaps the super) could have a key and something could disappear.
    - tptacek 14y ago
kirillzubovsky 14y ago
Before you suggest that short-term rentals through AirBnB impact your living standards, you should try to rent your own place on AirBnB, as well as go travel and stay at AirBnB locations. You'd be pleasantly surprised that most visitors are decent human beings and don't have a mission to destroy someone's property. At least, this has been my experience with AirBnB. Saying that "one person complained, once .." is just silly. Wherever you live, you may have a bad neighbor, but that doesn't mean your entire condo building is full of them. More so, if your bad neighbor buys a condo or a house right next door to yours, there's nothing you can do about it either. With short-term rentals, you at least know that less fitting people are only staying for a few days. Finally, the only reason this issue is getting a lot of attention is because AirBnB is so freaking successful. Before them, you could find any short term rental, but you'd go to Craigslist to find it. You'd then have to connect with some shady people and pay them in cash, upon your arrival. With Airbnb, you get quality postings in great location, hosted by some really great folks. Travelers love it and use it. Because of that, hotel industry is getting upset. This small SF-based startup just kicked them where it hurts and shows no signs of slowing down. As a result, hotels are using outdated legal system in order to get their way. Unless you never travel anywhere beyond your backyard or you just love to give up all your money to the hotel owners, you should be jumping up and down and cheering for AirBnB and for short-term guests in your area.
- flatline3 14y ago
  Your position is painfully naive. A bad neighbor is a part of the community, and has to engage with that community. There are HOA rules, local laws, and social constructs that keep neighborly relations largely above board. We select neighborhoods based on the community. Transient tenants are not part of the community. They are not answerable to the community. Invariably a great deal of them will be poor members of the community, especially in an apartment building, and especially given that they're on vacation (and the rest of us aren't): late nights, smoking, drunken antics, or in the case of our building -- lighting the roof deck on fire by dropping smoldering cigarettes on flammable material. > Unless you never travel anywhere beyond your backyard or you just love to give up all your money to the hotel owners, you should be jumping up and down and cheering for AirBnB and for short-term guests in your area. People pay for hotels because they provide deterministic quality. I know that when I show up, the room will be clean, ready, and of a certain level of quality. It's less for me to worry about; worrying about the accommodations is not something I want to spend time on. For some people, that determinism is not worth the money, or is not even something they're looking for. AirBNB offers an option for those people, but at significant cost to the surrounding community and commons.
adrr 14y ago
If you plan to be in your house for a long time, driving down property values is a good thing as you will have lower property tax. I never thought property value was a good argument. Its not constrained by law or morals. Its all about demand. For example, a minority neighborhood will have lower property values for a similar white neighborhood. Now apply your logic about property values. The thing about bars and brothels, is that they are public nuisances. Bars are loud and brothels you have people coming(no pun intended) and going all night. A better argument would be about health regulations and competition. It is unfair advantage for these home motels because they don't have to abide by regulations and aren't even required to be insured/bonded. There's also a public safety risk since health regulations aren't being followed.
larrys 14y ago
"negative reaction to this here. The HN demographic is presumably tilted towards young men." I'm pretty sure you could actually correlate with life experiences as well (even though age and life experience correlate). Someone who has not been burned and who hasn't seen or experienced some negative consequence of being open is going to tend to have a negative reaction when something like this is discussed. They don't know what they don't know.
tgrass 14y ago
1 in 4 homes [EDIT: mortgages] are underwater.[1] If the goal by which we make neighborhood/city wide planning decisions is the ability to "look after" one's property, I propose homeowners are clearly more socially derelict and likely to ignore the community. [only partially sarcastic] 1. http://nationalmortgageprofessional.com/news30381/nearly-24-percent-all-us-properties-underwater-q1 http://nationalmortgageprofessional.com/news30381/nearly-24-...
- praxulus 14y ago
  1 in 4 mortgages, which is less than 1 in 4 homes.
  - tgrass 14y ago
    Corrected.
joebottherobot 14y ago
I tend to disagree about short-term renters not looking after the place. As an Airbnb host I find that most of my guests leave the place cleaner than when I left it. I imagine this is because a) they are cognizant that it is the property of another person b) there is a reputation attached with their stay. I also have peace of mind that if the place gets trashed it will be covered by the million dollar guarantee.
TheIronWolf 14y ago
Disclaimer: I'm a current Airbnb employee I've traveled & stayed in Airbnbs quite a bit and have met the full range of hosts: those just doing it for fun & to meet people, working to cover their rent, allowing themselves the freedom to cut down work and finish their book, work on their startup, bring their B&B business back after 1 bad trip advisor review, and on and on. These are honest, good people with a variety of motivations. I've never stayed with a host that is doing it to screw over their landlord, spite the hotel industry or trouble their neighbors. Similarly, we aren't crafting our product to damn the man - we are driven by the lives we are enhancing by existing. Regarding opening a brothel, bar or club in their dwelling? Think of it this way: if your neighbor has parties, all of the activities of those establishments can/will happen. As far as neighbors go some will not care and others will. If it is degrading your quality of life or endangering your wellbeing - then talk to the person and explain your side, file a complaint or whatever it takes to feel safe again. As a side note, I am not a host. As I signed the lease my landlord said "I know you work for Airbnb and it's unfortunately not allowed in this building." I want to be host for a number of reasons but I've been told no, and that is fine. Though it is certainly a bummer.
deleted 14y ago
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Harj 14y ago
I list my apartment on airbnb and my considerations aren't as divorced from those of my neighbours as you're making out. Most people care about where they live. I don't want my apartment trashed by people using it as a place to party for a couple of days just as much, if not more, than my neighbours don't. I've had dozens of people stay at my apartment through airbnb and they've all been respectful, fantastic guests. I always look through their profiles and reviews before letting them stay, it's a far cry from operating a brothel or crack den. I'd bet my neighbours know less about their cleaners than I do about my Airbnb guests before they arrive.

by cletus 14y ago

barmstrong 14y ago

You're right that short term renters change the value of a property, but you still have all your work ahead of you to show why it should actually be illegal (having the police come raid people). What you described is handled quite well by regular contracts between tenants/landlords. If a tenant signs a lease where short term rentals aren't allowed and violates it then they can be evicted, lose their deposit, etc. Similarly, landlords who don't allow it could face slightly lower rents by losing tenants who want more flexibility. In other words, it reaches a balance as people negotiate contracts. There is a big difference between violating a lease and making something illegal.

tptacek 14y ago
I think 'cletus is using "apartment" in its generic sense. There's no question that most leases are done on boilerplate contracts that forbid Airbnb-type arrangements, often by spelling out by name each of the occupants, but at the least almost invariably specifying that the landlord gets reasonable approval over any sublessor. I'm sure there are pinholes to be poked in this point but I think as a general rule of thumb we can stipulate: apartment renters cannot lawfully put their apartments up on Airbnb, and the simplest remedy to them doing so is indeed to evict and then sue them. But getting back to 'cletus point: focus your attention on those "apartments" we call "condos". If your association contracts are good, there are remedies for Airbnb abuse here too, but they're nowhere nearly as clean as the remedies for apartment renters. Or, here's another wrinkle: go back to the apartment rental scenario, but stipulate that the landlord doesn't care to assert their right to curb Airbnb abuse. What recourse do the other renters in the building have now? They probably do have some; for instance, they can break their lease. But this is messy.

drcube 14y ago

So, your argument is that no one should open bars ever? Unless the neighbors get to vote and agree on it? Who counts as a neighbor? (I understand "the city" represents the neighbors and passes zoning laws, etc. That this is currently the case doesn't make it right.) Yes, someone should be able to operate a brothel or bar on their own property. I don't see why this is even controversial, but for some reason it is incredibly so. If the neighbors don't like it, they can move. As long as the owner isn't physically harming anyone, they should be left alone on their own property. This whole argument is disingenuous, however, since the people complaining aren't neighbors, but hotels pissed off at having competition.

scarmig 14y ago
Well, the bar example is fairly interesting: in lots of localities, that's exactly how things work. This is one thing that leads to bar or nightlife districts in cities, as no other residential areas want to deal with the issues caused by bars. It is hotels complaining, for now, and I don't think anyone is taking the POV that we should respect their legally privileged position just because they already have it. But a lot of these and similar laws have existed for awhile, because various bad actors have abused short term renting in the past. And if Airbnb and similar setups become more widespread (as they're bound to do), we do want to have some legal framework to deal with issues as they arise.

gojomo 14y ago

All true, but the power of persistent online reputations can mitigate these negatives better than inflexible 20th-century-style regulations.

hell0_th3r3 14y ago
ever heard of astroturfing? after working on a listings site, i automatically assume 80% of ratings and reviews and astroturfed
- njs12345 14y ago
  It's hardly rocket science to tell whether a review is astroturfing or not..
- gojomo 14y ago
  It's different when every rating is gated by actual money-changing-hands-in-commerce, as with AirBNB, Uber, and similar. Further, with the overlay of a giant social network, you can rent your spot out only to people with whom you share some indirect but useful level of acquaintance. So you can ask before renting: "Is Mr. X an inconsiderate ass?" And Mr. X knows bad behavior can affect their reputation moreso than just via a semi-anonymous blurb on a website.
- joebottherobot 14y ago
  That's not true. We take reputation extremely seriously. Unlike traditional listing sites, every review is tied to a financial transaction. Additionally, we have many other mechanisms in place to prevent astroturfing.

te_platt 14y ago

What you say is true and there are competing interests to be balanced. Still, it seems the pressure to disallow short term renting is coming from business interests rather than neighbor complaints.

danking00 14y ago

I'd like to focus solely on the issue of "your neighbours didn't sign up for you opening a hotel". Of course my neighbors have a right to not be unreasonably disturbed by my own existence. Most communities have noise violation laws and other citations for creating an undesirable atmosphere. The folks offering short-term rents are not excused from such laws. Why do we need new laws? If your neighbor's short-term tennats are loud assholes, make a noise complaint.

rprasad 14y ago
And what will that solve? In a day or two the tenants will be gone, replaced by other loud assholes. The complaint solves nothing, as the neighbor has no reason to punish the original assholes who have already left. The assholes problem is why we have restrictions against short-term leases in so many areas. (Most such restrictions predate AirBNB, despite what the article would have you believe.)
- natrius 14y ago
  Don't fines solve this problem? The owner gets fined and either passes on the fine to the renter or pays it and has an incentive to police renters more thoroughly.
rayiner 14y ago
It's like saying: there is no need for zoning, if industrial activity creates noises/hazards, just sue! There is a place for piecemeal litigation of individual disputes. There is also a place for regulation and zoning to maintain order, especially in a large, tightly-packed city.
eps 14y ago
Noise issues are secondary to security and common area maintenance issues.

smokeyj 14y ago

So much text, so little substance. Let's sum up your arguments for why this is good. 1) HN wouldn't understand because they're young men 2) Value of property in an area can go down 3) Property can suffer damages 4) Rentals may inconvenience neighbors All these points can be overcome without eroding our property rights. While values of homes can go down, they can also go up. Property can be damaged, but it can also be insured. Rentals may inconvenience neighbors, but disturbing the peace is already a crime.

huhtenberg 14y ago
> Property can be damaged, but it can also be insured. You are missing the point. I don't want common property in my condo building to be damaged, period. It just spoils my day.
- smokeyj 14y ago
  That's a private matter that should be determined by your contract. Can't tell if joking..
  - huhtenberg 14y ago
    I am not. The GP said that having too many renters increases the risk of property damage (which is very true), to which you replied (essentially) - why worry, let them damage, the insurance will pick the tab - to which I said that it's the actual damage, not the cost of repairs that is an issue.
    - smokeyj 14y ago
      Rules regarding the rental of private property to a private party is a private matter in my opinion. Private parties already regulate the user of communal property thru vehicles such as a HOA. If you have a condo then the HOA can decide if renting is appropriate. Having the government dictate how your property can be used is more disturbing than having to attend a HOA meeting. Sure, you might agree with this particular regulation, but how about when the other political party takes power and decides they want to use your property differently. No thank you.

ericabiz 14y ago

I'm female; I rent out my guest room on Airbnb. I have no idea what this has to do with gender. (NB: I own my house, do not live in an area with a HOA, and do not live in a city with an ordinance against short-term rentals.) I've also frequently stayed at other Airbnb properties and always had a pleasant experience. Here's the real issue: So many people say this industry needs regulation. I don't necessarily agree; I lean Libertarian and tend to think the market will take care of itself. I have an incentive to make my guests super happy because I know they will write bad reviews and my days making extra money via Airbnb will be over if I don't treat them well. Having said that, even if you do agree that the industry needs regulation, this isn't regulation! This is heavy-handed making an entrepreneurial venture illegal because of vested interests who are threatened by said entrepreneurial venture. As an entrepreneur and someone who's in favor of eliminating middlemen in general, I'm against this form of regulation. Airbnb issues 1099's to its customers, so I do pay taxes on the money I make from it. If the city wants me to get a license and inspections, I might also be okay with that. But I'm firmly against making this illegal, no matter what strawmen others might throw up. (Heck, there is a "Hotel Hell" show coming out in August here in the U.S. featuring Gordon Ramsay screaming at hotel owners who have cockroaches and bedbugs. I've certainly never had that sort of experience at an Airbnb rental.) As citizens, we have the right to make our own decisions. As a citizen and a voter, I hope we can start a campaign much like we did against SOPA and PIPA to help make sure our voices are heard. I'm sure these cities have heard plenty from hotels. Now it's our turn.

tptacek 14y ago
Municipalities aren't making this unlawful. Running unregulated unlicensed undocumented hotels has been illegal for decades. What you're asking is for people to engage in activism to overturn statutes and codes that every major city already has on the books. What statutes and codes do you propose to replace them with?
- ericabiz 14y ago
  That is not what the article said. Here is the direct quote: "In 2010 New York passed a law requiring a minimum thirty-day stay for any rental in a residential building—in effect making shorter-term rentals, the bulk of the market, illegal."

tgrass 14y ago

I am a father, and I rent. Are my rights less (as proxied by my landlord) than my neighbor who owns an underwater house? [EDIT] When I go down to the polling station on election day, I assure you my rights are equal.

sp332 14y ago
edit OK I misunderstood. skip this post :) Yes, of course. Starting with the obvious, your landlord could just throw you out. Your agreement almost certainly prevents you from making significant changes to the structure of the building. You can't sell the property. Your rights are much, much less than your neighbor.
- tgrass 14y ago
  "As proxied BY my landlord" I am speaking of my rights in the community, not to the property. That is, should there be a speed bump on the street, should a WalMart be allowed to build on the condemned lot around the corner.
  - sp332 14y ago
    I think it's still true that you have somewhat less rights since you're not (directly) paying the property taxes.
  - mseebach 14y ago
    Then you're moving into tautological territory. Those rights are held by your landlord. If he proxies them to you, then you have them, if he doesn't, you don't.
    - tgrass 14y ago
      I am thinking of instances where a landlord's interest are aligned with tenants generally. For instance, fighting neighborhoods who use political connections to oppose rental development in central city neighborhoods ("mini dorms"). Discrimination is discrimination. These are public neighborhoods. Protecting one's property value does not make discrimination noble or any less discriminatory.

mhurron 14y ago

> Would people feel the same way if someone was operating a brothel in their house or apartment? After all, it's their property and they can do with it as they please right? What about operating a bar or a club? That's the way you're going to go with it? Why don't you try it. You'll find that those issues are actually already handled by local laws in most places.

blaines 14y ago
Exactly, there's laws in place that already prohibit running a business out of a home. Specific business types and activities apply, for instance, you cannot start a farm unless it has been zoned accordingly. In addition some cities have limits on what type, and how many animals you keep on premises. On the contrary, it is typically acceptable to have a garden and sell your crop or have a chicken and sell it's eggs (say, at a farmers market).

nostromo 14y ago

You're forgetting that this problem is already solved by contract law. Tenants sign agreements not to rent out their units all the time. Home owner's associations often have rules against short-term rentals as well. If you don't like the idea of short-term rentals in your neighborhood or building, choose one protected by one of these types of contracts. In fact, they're so common, you probably already have such protections, even if you don't know it. The government making something illegal really should be the last resort for societal problems. I'm not convinced short-term rentals are really so harmful as to meet that threshold.

muzz 14y ago
If you own a single-family detached home, this is not likely to be the case (if there is no HOA).
tptacek 14y ago
What's the contract law remedy for a tenant in a building whose unscrupulous landlord has decided to dump his spare inventory onto Airbnb as an ad hoc hostel? Break the lease? Sue for moving costs and to recover the security deposite? What if you're rent-controlled and the landlord says "go ahead, break the lease! woohoo!"? What's the contract law remedy for unscrupulous businesspeople who buy entire buildings and convert them into Airbnb hostels? I've used and appreciated Airbnb, but I think 'cletus is ultimately right and threads like this have a hard time of seeing the (valid) other side of this issue.
- Zak 14y ago
  What's the contract law remedy for a tenant in a building whose unscrupulous landlord has decided to dump his spare inventory onto Airbnb as an ad hoc hostel? One long-term solution that could emerge is for it to be common to have provisions in leases that forbid both tenants and landlords from doing such things. It might take a while for that to happen, but if what you describe becomes much of a problem, it's likely to happen. What if you're rent-controlled and the landlord says "go ahead, break the lease! woohoo!"? Then your bargaining power is reduced in exchange for your below-market rent. Sounds fair to me. What's the contract law remedy for unscrupulous businesspeople who buy entire buildings and convert them into Airbnb hostels? That's a slightly different issue. I don't think this is necessarily unscrupulous to do this, but there's certainly a potential for externalities.

tsieling 14y ago

What does gender have to do with opinions about whether someone should be able to rent out a room in a building they own? Renters don't tend to look after properties. No, that's why it's called rent and they have property managers or landlords who have that responsibility. That said, I've been in my rented place for 12yrs and take good care of it, as do other tenants in our building. Myth busted. How would I feel if someone opened a brothel? Not great, but then AirBnB doesn't really cater to brothel operations, and those don't usually fly by night so what point that is supposed to make other than setting up a BS false dichotomy (restrict renting or live with the sex trade next door). Bars and clubs are regulated by zoning, so how would that ever happen? The point is that a scummy hotel industry is trying to hedge out competition by using deep pockets to lobby local government into reinforcing their monopoly. Making apologies for them puts you against people like the guy in the article: hard times, tries to make a few extra bucks and gets shut down by the five cops at his door. Sound like America to you? Sound like he was opening a brothel? Look him in his unemployed eye and call the cops on him while you do.

hell0_th3r3 14y ago
they don't "own" the property and the word "owner" does not appear on anyone's deed (don't believe me? go read your own) you are a tenant on the land, and your deed says this. the county is the owner.
- rprasad 14y ago
  I think you need to reread your deed, or move off of Section 8 housing. My deed explicitly states that I am the owner of my condo, as well as a % of the building and land on which the condo resides.
  - hell0_th3r3 14y ago
    you have a condo agreement., not a deed. your condo building owner has a deed. ask a lawyer
excuse-me 14y ago

larrys 14y ago

"Generally the more owner-occupiers, the better the building." Same from my experience on the east coast. I will assume that's universal. "Renters don't tend to look after properties, tend to be less mindful of behaviour that impacts the neighbours (parties, etc), etc." Once again true from my experience. And here we aren't even talking about longer term rentals. We are talking about days and the fact that you could literally have 50 to 200 different occupants per year greatly increasing the chance statistically that there would be some people who might cause problems. "you are raising the risk of damage or theft to the property of others by bringing a stream of strangers into your home." Iirc, while the Fred Wilson emails with PG regarding airbnb didn't reveal this I feel that this fear of strangers and what they can do played into his thinking as far as not wanting to invest in airbnb. It was my gut immediate reaction. Edit: http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2011/03/17/fred-wilson-offers-rare-glimpse-into-one-that-got-away/ http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2011/03/17/fred-wilson-o...

tptacek 14y ago
And remember, in those mails, the idea being discussed was the risk to the apartment owner of having their stuff owned. But in many NYC buildings --- including the NYC ABNB rentals I've had --- access to the apartment includes access to the front gate and the front door; in other words, it creates additional access to the apartments of every renter in the building, whether or not they themselves have opted in to Airbnb.
- larrys 14y ago
  "the apartment owner of having their stuff owned" By the way there is also the chance of the renter having their things owned. If I stay at a hotel there is at least some control over who can enter my room and presumably key card logs, as well as videos showing access (and a safe in the room). While this does not provide absolute security obviously, I feel more safe leaving my laptop in a hotel room then in someone's apartment where anyone (old friend or perhaps the super) could have a key and something could disappear.
  - tptacek 14y ago

kirillzubovsky 14y ago

Before you suggest that short-term rentals through AirBnB impact your living standards, you should try to rent your own place on AirBnB, as well as go travel and stay at AirBnB locations. You'd be pleasantly surprised that most visitors are decent human beings and don't have a mission to destroy someone's property. At least, this has been my experience with AirBnB. Saying that "one person complained, once .." is just silly. Wherever you live, you may have a bad neighbor, but that doesn't mean your entire condo building is full of them. More so, if your bad neighbor buys a condo or a house right next door to yours, there's nothing you can do about it either. With short-term rentals, you at least know that less fitting people are only staying for a few days. Finally, the only reason this issue is getting a lot of attention is because AirBnB is so freaking successful. Before them, you could find any short term rental, but you'd go to Craigslist to find it. You'd then have to connect with some shady people and pay them in cash, upon your arrival. With Airbnb, you get quality postings in great location, hosted by some really great folks. Travelers love it and use it. Because of that, hotel industry is getting upset. This small SF-based startup just kicked them where it hurts and shows no signs of slowing down. As a result, hotels are using outdated legal system in order to get their way. Unless you never travel anywhere beyond your backyard or you just love to give up all your money to the hotel owners, you should be jumping up and down and cheering for AirBnB and for short-term guests in your area.

flatline3 14y ago
Your position is painfully naive. A bad neighbor is a part of the community, and has to engage with that community. There are HOA rules, local laws, and social constructs that keep neighborly relations largely above board. We select neighborhoods based on the community. Transient tenants are not part of the community. They are not answerable to the community. Invariably a great deal of them will be poor members of the community, especially in an apartment building, and especially given that they're on vacation (and the rest of us aren't): late nights, smoking, drunken antics, or in the case of our building -- lighting the roof deck on fire by dropping smoldering cigarettes on flammable material. > Unless you never travel anywhere beyond your backyard or you just love to give up all your money to the hotel owners, you should be jumping up and down and cheering for AirBnB and for short-term guests in your area. People pay for hotels because they provide deterministic quality. I know that when I show up, the room will be clean, ready, and of a certain level of quality. It's less for me to worry about; worrying about the accommodations is not something I want to spend time on. For some people, that determinism is not worth the money, or is not even something they're looking for. AirBNB offers an option for those people, but at significant cost to the surrounding community and commons.

adrr 14y ago

If you plan to be in your house for a long time, driving down property values is a good thing as you will have lower property tax. I never thought property value was a good argument. Its not constrained by law or morals. Its all about demand. For example, a minority neighborhood will have lower property values for a similar white neighborhood. Now apply your logic about property values. The thing about bars and brothels, is that they are public nuisances. Bars are loud and brothels you have people coming(no pun intended) and going all night. A better argument would be about health regulations and competition. It is unfair advantage for these home motels because they don't have to abide by regulations and aren't even required to be insured/bonded. There's also a public safety risk since health regulations aren't being followed.

larrys 14y ago

"negative reaction to this here. The HN demographic is presumably tilted towards young men." I'm pretty sure you could actually correlate with life experiences as well (even though age and life experience correlate). Someone who has not been burned and who hasn't seen or experienced some negative consequence of being open is going to tend to have a negative reaction when something like this is discussed. They don't know what they don't know.

tgrass 14y ago

1 in 4 homes [EDIT: mortgages] are underwater.[1] If the goal by which we make neighborhood/city wide planning decisions is the ability to "look after" one's property, I propose homeowners are clearly more socially derelict and likely to ignore the community. [only partially sarcastic] 1. http://nationalmortgageprofessional.com/news30381/nearly-24-percent-all-us-properties-underwater-q1 http://nationalmortgageprofessional.com/news30381/nearly-24-...

praxulus 14y ago
1 in 4 mortgages, which is less than 1 in 4 homes.
- tgrass 14y ago
  Corrected.

joebottherobot 14y ago

I tend to disagree about short-term renters not looking after the place. As an Airbnb host I find that most of my guests leave the place cleaner than when I left it. I imagine this is because a) they are cognizant that it is the property of another person b) there is a reputation attached with their stay. I also have peace of mind that if the place gets trashed it will be covered by the million dollar guarantee.

TheIronWolf 14y ago

Disclaimer: I'm a current Airbnb employee I've traveled & stayed in Airbnbs quite a bit and have met the full range of hosts: those just doing it for fun & to meet people, working to cover their rent, allowing themselves the freedom to cut down work and finish their book, work on their startup, bring their B&B business back after 1 bad trip advisor review, and on and on. These are honest, good people with a variety of motivations. I've never stayed with a host that is doing it to screw over their landlord, spite the hotel industry or trouble their neighbors. Similarly, we aren't crafting our product to damn the man - we are driven by the lives we are enhancing by existing. Regarding opening a brothel, bar or club in their dwelling? Think of it this way: if your neighbor has parties, all of the activities of those establishments can/will happen. As far as neighbors go some will not care and others will. If it is degrading your quality of life or endangering your wellbeing - then talk to the person and explain your side, file a complaint or whatever it takes to feel safe again. As a side note, I am not a host. As I signed the lease my landlord said "I know you work for Airbnb and it's unfortunately not allowed in this building." I want to be host for a number of reasons but I've been told no, and that is fine. Though it is certainly a bummer.

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Harj 14y ago

I list my apartment on airbnb and my considerations aren't as divorced from those of my neighbours as you're making out. Most people care about where they live. I don't want my apartment trashed by people using it as a place to party for a couple of days just as much, if not more, than my neighbours don't. I've had dozens of people stay at my apartment through airbnb and they've all been respectful, fantastic guests. I always look through their profiles and reviews before letting them stay, it's a far cry from operating a brothel or crack den. I'd bet my neighbours know less about their cleaners than I do about my Airbnb guests before they arrive.