4 ms·

In theory I can make bluetooth and wifi and deep-sleep work with Linux, but am I actually able to fix it? No, and not for a lack of trying. If we're talking abo

by dymk 2y ago

In theory I can make bluetooth and wifi and deep-sleep work with Linux, but am I actually able to fix it? No, and not for a lack of trying. If we're talking about practical ability to fix what goes wrong with my daily driver, then macOS still wins hands down.

EasyMark 2y ago
you can fix it by buying a linux compatible laptop/pc or building one with known compatibility.
- dymk 2y ago
  Oh cool, all I have to do is buy new hardware when the software breaks during updates or when Mercury is in retrograde
  - nine_k 2y ago
    Frankly, the same is still true for Windows. Not all WiFi and BT devices are created equal. Sometimes an update breaks them in subtle ways. Actually, I had fewer compatibility problems with Linux than I had with Windows, using absolutely non-esoteric hardware, like Thinkpad laptops, Asus motherboards, etc. Hell, sometimes it was easier to set up a printer under Linux than under Windows (which, frankly, is more often the other way around). But usually Linux, and to a smaller extent, Windows, allows you to cobble your own solution if a solid predefined solution is not available. MacOS is much more often a "my way or highway" kind of environment. Some enjoy it; I don't.
  - michaelmrose 2y ago
    Alternatively buy laptops that come with Linux or at least are known to be well supported. Whenever I buy a new piece of hardware of any sort I end up reading lots of spec sheets, reviews, and articles and comparing choices according to a whole range of desirable features. Making Linux support one of them hardly makes it any more complicated. If nothing else search for product category + Linux then find a list of recommendations and then google choices that look good looking for unbiased critique focusing especially on people claiming systemic flaws in design that effect all units.
  - nixosbestos 2y ago
    I would literally pay good money to watch some of you use Linux and try to figure out... you know, what's going on. And or pay to know the actual truth about when the last time you used an up-to-date distro was. My NixOS laptop is by far the most, stable consistent, unchanging device in my entire life. Speaking of which, shout-out Google for breaking LDAC on their most recent Pixel 9 updates.
- avalys 2y ago
  It is impossible for a Linux-compatible PC to have a problem with Linux, because if a PC has a problem with Linux, it is obviously not Linux-compatible. Therefore, if you ever have a problem with Linux on your PC, it is your fault for expecting Linux to work on your non-compatible PC, and you cannot blame the difficulty of fixing the problem on Linux.
  - fallous 2y ago
    Obviously you can avoid all of this by buying your Linux-compatible PC only from a True Scotsman.
    - tap-snap-or-nap 2y ago
      Can't find any Scotsman in Australia, let alone a true one.
      - CalRobert 2y ago
        Weird, I’m pretty sure plenty of Scots are in Australia. https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/what-we-do/whm-program/latest-news/arrangements-uk-passport-holders https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/what-we-do/whm-program/lates...
        defrost 2y ago
        Bon Scott didn't do a lot of PC support, but he did have a hand built amplifier from one of the early legends of the BBS scene. https://trevormarshall.com/bon.htm https://trevormarshall.com/bon.htm http://www.bbsdocumentary.com/photos/104marshall/index.html http://www.bbsdocumentary.com/photos/104marshall/index.html
  - michaelmrose 2y ago
    This isn't a tautology. Plenty of hardware is in the set of hardware officially supported by manufacturer or oem under Linux or known to be well supported by open source drivers. If offical data is absent unoffocial data is oft readily available. If nothing would lead a reasonable person to believe it is supported then your default assumption should be that is likely not. If the functionality that one expects to work works as expected on supported hardware but not on yours then Linux isn't broken your hardware is. If it doesn't work on previously supported or otherwise well supported hardware its a bug in the software. It's weird that compatibly is discussed as if for the next 20 years one shall be forced to use a succession of randomly chosen machines and compatibility will ever be a crapshoot. Often people will initially try Linux on random machines but official Linux machines are out there and those who have decided that Linux meets their needs can easily find well supported hardware.
- wruza 2y ago
  This usually means you’re building/buying a 5yo “monster” that competes with your iphone. And even then it’s no guarantee.
bsder 2y ago
As opposed to all the people who can't make a USB keyboard work with MacOS and can't do a damn thing about it. The thread about it generally reaches 40+ pages before Apple erases it only for it to come back. Apple has known about it for half a decade. I can pinpoint the OS release when they broke it. Sure, it doesn't seem to affect everybody, but the people it does affect have no recourse. With MacOS, as long as everything works, everything works. But, when it doesn't, you cannot do a damn thing about it. Linux very, very rarely leaves that kind of catastrophic bug for 5+ years.
- jabwd 2y ago
  idk my xbox controller works on macOS, doesn't on Linux. Same bluetooth chipset (Magic of multiple drives and hackintoshing some crap). Idk what USB thing you're talking about but you surely seem to be capable of providing some actual useful info for people like me who would actually like to understand what you're talking about?
- icedchai 2y ago
  When did it break, and why does it still work for me? (Mac Studio, M1 Max, macOS 15.2)
  - bsder 2y ago
    It broke approximately 2018, and it works for most people. When it doesn't work, "why" it doesn't work is unclear, but it's very consistent for those of us to whom it happens. I tracked it to a single OS update because it was one of the last iterations that still had removable SSDs. I could swap the drives and the USB failure moved with the OS. It's almost certainly an overly zealous macOS USB HID driver. macOS will do very strange things if the HID descriptor and the USB report don't correspond exactly and it will do those weird things silently. People have had to work around strange macOS HID handling for quite a while now.
leni536 2y ago
All of those work. As for bluetooth, I can connect multiple bluetooth headphones and playback audio at the same time. This is a bit fiddly, but I wouldn't even know where to start on some other systems.
- jval43 2y ago
  Bluetooth on Windows is a nightmare too. Headphones, keyboards, mice etc might work initially, but at some point they don't connect anymore and it's almost impossible to fix. Mac is better in that regard, unpairing and repairing usually works. On Windows it's just broken. It's why I only use hardware with fixed dongles (Jabra, Logitech, etc).
- imiric 2y ago
  I was recently shocked to find out that you can't change the volume in macOS when the machine is connected to a TV over HDMI[1]. Volume control is entirely disabled, and you need to adjust it via the TV. Or use a 3rd-party program. This is absolutely insane. I'm sure Apple will claim to have a very good reason for this, but the concept of controlling volume on audio devices has existed since the dawn of computer audio. All other operating systems do this as expected. This is my main issue with using Apple devices. You either accept their vision of how to use the device you paid for, or consider yourself lucky that a 3rd-party solution exists (and that Apple has allowed to exist), which you also usually need to pay for. Insanity. [1]: https://old.reddit.com/r/macmini/comments/lgfjax/is_it_possible_to_control_the_volume_of_an_hdmi/ https://old.reddit.com/r/macmini/comments/lgfjax/is_it_possi...
  - saagarjha 2y ago
    I assume the reason is that too many people don’t get audio over HDMI because one or the other volume controls is at 0.
mistercheph 2y ago
What hardware were you experiencing issues with wifi or bluetooth or sleep?
akvadrako 2y ago
Deep sleep doesn't work with Windows or Mac, and isn't needed on Linux either. My past two laptops, ASUS and Lenovo, lasted days with modern standby. Not as great as Apple but good enough.
makeitdouble 2y ago
> deep-sleep Didn't Apple kill deep sleep/hibernation when transitioning to ARM ? It was touted as "Always On Processor" to mimic the iOS and iPadOS management of CPU and never shut it down.
- saagarjha 2y ago
  No, that does things like Hey Siri.
  - makeitdouble 2y ago
    I'm failing to find the offical docs, but from the release reporting: > One of the lesser known facts about the Apple M1 chip is it has an always-on processor. This means that even when your Mac goes to sleep, it isn't really completely asleep. Macs with Intel chips have had a feature called Power Nap for a while now. M1 Macs don't need that feature because it's built-in and automatically running at all times. https://www.xda-developers.com/first-10-things-to-do-m1-mac/#3 https://www.xda-developers.com/first-10-things-to-do-m1-mac/...
    - saagarjha 2y ago
      The processor is limited and can't take general tasks from the AP.

by dymk 2y ago

EasyMark 2y ago

you can fix it by buying a linux compatible laptop/pc or building one with known compatibility.

dymk 2y ago
Oh cool, all I have to do is buy new hardware when the software breaks during updates or when Mercury is in retrograde
- nine_k 2y ago
  Frankly, the same is still true for Windows. Not all WiFi and BT devices are created equal. Sometimes an update breaks them in subtle ways. Actually, I had fewer compatibility problems with Linux than I had with Windows, using absolutely non-esoteric hardware, like Thinkpad laptops, Asus motherboards, etc. Hell, sometimes it was easier to set up a printer under Linux than under Windows (which, frankly, is more often the other way around). But usually Linux, and to a smaller extent, Windows, allows you to cobble your own solution if a solid predefined solution is not available. MacOS is much more often a "my way or highway" kind of environment. Some enjoy it; I don't.
- michaelmrose 2y ago
  Alternatively buy laptops that come with Linux or at least are known to be well supported. Whenever I buy a new piece of hardware of any sort I end up reading lots of spec sheets, reviews, and articles and comparing choices according to a whole range of desirable features. Making Linux support one of them hardly makes it any more complicated. If nothing else search for product category + Linux then find a list of recommendations and then google choices that look good looking for unbiased critique focusing especially on people claiming systemic flaws in design that effect all units.
- nixosbestos 2y ago
  I would literally pay good money to watch some of you use Linux and try to figure out... you know, what's going on. And or pay to know the actual truth about when the last time you used an up-to-date distro was. My NixOS laptop is by far the most, stable consistent, unchanging device in my entire life. Speaking of which, shout-out Google for breaking LDAC on their most recent Pixel 9 updates.
avalys 2y ago
It is impossible for a Linux-compatible PC to have a problem with Linux, because if a PC has a problem with Linux, it is obviously not Linux-compatible. Therefore, if you ever have a problem with Linux on your PC, it is your fault for expecting Linux to work on your non-compatible PC, and you cannot blame the difficulty of fixing the problem on Linux.
- fallous 2y ago
  Obviously you can avoid all of this by buying your Linux-compatible PC only from a True Scotsman.
  - tap-snap-or-nap 2y ago
    Can't find any Scotsman in Australia, let alone a true one.
    - CalRobert 2y ago
      Weird, I’m pretty sure plenty of Scots are in Australia. https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/what-we-do/whm-program/latest-news/arrangements-uk-passport-holders https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/what-we-do/whm-program/lates...
      - defrost 2y ago
        Bon Scott didn't do a lot of PC support, but he did have a hand built amplifier from one of the early legends of the BBS scene. https://trevormarshall.com/bon.htm https://trevormarshall.com/bon.htm http://www.bbsdocumentary.com/photos/104marshall/index.html http://www.bbsdocumentary.com/photos/104marshall/index.html
- michaelmrose 2y ago
  This isn't a tautology. Plenty of hardware is in the set of hardware officially supported by manufacturer or oem under Linux or known to be well supported by open source drivers. If offical data is absent unoffocial data is oft readily available. If nothing would lead a reasonable person to believe it is supported then your default assumption should be that is likely not. If the functionality that one expects to work works as expected on supported hardware but not on yours then Linux isn't broken your hardware is. If it doesn't work on previously supported or otherwise well supported hardware its a bug in the software. It's weird that compatibly is discussed as if for the next 20 years one shall be forced to use a succession of randomly chosen machines and compatibility will ever be a crapshoot. Often people will initially try Linux on random machines but official Linux machines are out there and those who have decided that Linux meets their needs can easily find well supported hardware.
wruza 2y ago
This usually means you’re building/buying a 5yo “monster” that competes with your iphone. And even then it’s no guarantee.

bsder 2y ago

As opposed to all the people who can't make a USB keyboard work with MacOS and can't do a damn thing about it. The thread about it generally reaches 40+ pages before Apple erases it only for it to come back. Apple has known about it for half a decade. I can pinpoint the OS release when they broke it. Sure, it doesn't seem to affect everybody, but the people it does affect have no recourse. With MacOS, as long as everything works, everything works. But, when it doesn't, you cannot do a damn thing about it. Linux very, very rarely leaves that kind of catastrophic bug for 5+ years.

jabwd 2y ago
idk my xbox controller works on macOS, doesn't on Linux. Same bluetooth chipset (Magic of multiple drives and hackintoshing some crap). Idk what USB thing you're talking about but you surely seem to be capable of providing some actual useful info for people like me who would actually like to understand what you're talking about?
icedchai 2y ago
When did it break, and why does it still work for me? (Mac Studio, M1 Max, macOS 15.2)
- bsder 2y ago
  It broke approximately 2018, and it works for most people. When it doesn't work, "why" it doesn't work is unclear, but it's very consistent for those of us to whom it happens. I tracked it to a single OS update because it was one of the last iterations that still had removable SSDs. I could swap the drives and the USB failure moved with the OS. It's almost certainly an overly zealous macOS USB HID driver. macOS will do very strange things if the HID descriptor and the USB report don't correspond exactly and it will do those weird things silently. People have had to work around strange macOS HID handling for quite a while now.

leni536 2y ago

All of those work. As for bluetooth, I can connect multiple bluetooth headphones and playback audio at the same time. This is a bit fiddly, but I wouldn't even know where to start on some other systems.

jval43 2y ago
Bluetooth on Windows is a nightmare too. Headphones, keyboards, mice etc might work initially, but at some point they don't connect anymore and it's almost impossible to fix. Mac is better in that regard, unpairing and repairing usually works. On Windows it's just broken. It's why I only use hardware with fixed dongles (Jabra, Logitech, etc).
imiric 2y ago
I was recently shocked to find out that you can't change the volume in macOS when the machine is connected to a TV over HDMI[1]. Volume control is entirely disabled, and you need to adjust it via the TV. Or use a 3rd-party program. This is absolutely insane. I'm sure Apple will claim to have a very good reason for this, but the concept of controlling volume on audio devices has existed since the dawn of computer audio. All other operating systems do this as expected. This is my main issue with using Apple devices. You either accept their vision of how to use the device you paid for, or consider yourself lucky that a 3rd-party solution exists (and that Apple has allowed to exist), which you also usually need to pay for. Insanity. [1]: https://old.reddit.com/r/macmini/comments/lgfjax/is_it_possible_to_control_the_volume_of_an_hdmi/ https://old.reddit.com/r/macmini/comments/lgfjax/is_it_possi...
- saagarjha 2y ago
  I assume the reason is that too many people don’t get audio over HDMI because one or the other volume controls is at 0.

mistercheph 2y ago

What hardware were you experiencing issues with wifi or bluetooth or sleep?

akvadrako 2y ago

Deep sleep doesn't work with Windows or Mac, and isn't needed on Linux either. My past two laptops, ASUS and Lenovo, lasted days with modern standby. Not as great as Apple but good enough.

makeitdouble 2y ago

> deep-sleep Didn't Apple kill deep sleep/hibernation when transitioning to ARM ? It was touted as "Always On Processor" to mimic the iOS and iPadOS management of CPU and never shut it down.

saagarjha 2y ago
No, that does things like Hey Siri.
- makeitdouble 2y ago
  I'm failing to find the offical docs, but from the release reporting: > One of the lesser known facts about the Apple M1 chip is it has an always-on processor. This means that even when your Mac goes to sleep, it isn't really completely asleep. Macs with Intel chips have had a feature called Power Nap for a while now. M1 Macs don't need that feature because it's built-in and automatically running at all times. https://www.xda-developers.com/first-10-things-to-do-m1-mac/#3 https://www.xda-developers.com/first-10-things-to-do-m1-mac/...
  - saagarjha 2y ago
    The processor is limited and can't take general tasks from the AP.