6 ms·

> This sucks. We think it sucks. You think it sucks. But we can't fix it: Apple has to do so. And this is why I gave up on macOS several years ago now and move

> This sucks. We think it sucks. You think it sucks. But we can't fix it: Apple has to do so. And this is why I gave up on macOS several years ago now and moved to Linux. It's not about which OS is better or worse. All software has bugs. It's about the empowerment to _do something_ about the inevitable bugs, rather than wait and hope that a fix comes down from above.

kelnos 2y ago
And not just that: if an update breaks my Linux install, I can figure out what broke it and roll back to an older version. Rolling back updates on macOS or Windows is just... not really a thing, at least not without a full reinstall, assuming you even have installation media for older versions these days.
- com2kid 2y ago
  Windows automatically save a restore point before updates are installed and rolling back - assuming the machine isn't bricked - is really simple.
  - FredPret 2y ago
    Windows Update once borked my overnight ML job to install “critical updates; reboot required” on my desktop. I bought a MacBook the next day and put Linux on that desktop. 100% happier.
- bsder 2y ago
  It's actually really difficult to roll back a MacOS machine to an earlier OS even with a full reinstall. You either have to make MacOS backup disks immediately upon opening the machine, or you have to find MacOS installation disks from the dodgy high seas.
  - jasomill 2y ago
    Not really difficult to reinstall every major Intel Mac OS release, at least, as they're all downloadable from Apple in one way or another: 1. You can reinstall "the version of macOS that came with your Mac or the closest version that’s still available" via Internet Recovery[1]. 2. You can download installers for every major release back to High Sierra from Apple via the App Store[2] or directly from Apple's update servers using a tool like installinstallmacos[3]. 3. You can download installers for Sierra, El Capitan, Yosemite, Mountain Lion, and Lion directly from the Apple support site[2]. 3. You can download Snow Leopard and Leopard from the Apple developer site[4] (free registration required; paid membership possibly required). Note that the downloads on the developer site are the 10.x.0 retail builds, which may not be compatible with all Macs that shipped with a later build. In this case, assuming the version you need is no longer available via Internet Recovery, you'll probably need to install and patch on an older machine, then transfer the patched install to the target via disk swapping, imaging, or NetInstall, or to install and patch directly to the target machine's hard drive using Target Disk Mode (or else track down a copy of the model-specific restore DVDs that shipped with the target). Downloads from the App Store and support site should always be the latest point release, so this should only be a problem if you want to install Snow Leopard or Leopard on a post-release machine. Installing non-final point releases is admittedly problematic: you can download some but not all x.y.0 builds from the developer site, some but not all patches from the support site, and a few x.y.(z < latest) installers from Apple update servers, but AFAIK there's no way to get an arbitrary point release of any version unless you can find someone who has a copy saved. Though I wouldn't even be a little surprised if older patch releases were still available, unadvertised, somewhere on some public Apple Web server, given that you can still download System 6.0.3 (released October 1990; last supported Mac was the Classic, discontinued September 1992) if you know the correct URLs[5]. [1] https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/use-macos-recovery-on-an-intel-based-mac-mchl338cf9a8/mac https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/use-macos-recovery-... [2] https://support.apple.com/en-us/102662 https://support.apple.com/en-us/102662 [3] https://github.com/munki/macadmin-scripts https://github.com/munki/macadmin-scripts [4] https://developer.apple.com/download/all/ https://developer.apple.com/download/all/ [5] http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/English-North_American/Macintosh/System/Older_System/System_6.0.x/SSW_6.0.3_Disk1of4.sea.bin http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Soft... http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/English-North_American/Macintosh/System/Older_System/System_6.0.x/SSW_6.0.3_Disk2of4.sea.bin http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Soft... http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/English-North_American/Macintosh/System/Older_System/System_6.0.x/SSW_6.0.3_Disk3of4.sea.bin http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Soft... http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/English-North_American/Macintosh/System/Older_System/System_6.0.x/SSW_6.0.3_Disk4of4.sea.bin http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Soft...
  - tonyedgecombe 2y ago
    >or you have to find MacOS installation disks from the dodgy high seas. Mist[1] downloads them directly from Apple. [1] https://github.com/ninxsoft/Mist https://github.com/ninxsoft/Mist or https://github.com/ninxsoft/mist-cli https://github.com/ninxsoft/mist-cli
- n144q 2y ago
  You can. Most Linux users can't -- I say 90%, if not 99%. Most Linux users are just users, many of which don't know how to use tar or xargs without looking it up, very few have the technical knowledge and capability of figuring out "what broke it".
  - akvadrako 2y ago
    Rollbacks on image based distros like Fedora Silverblue are as easy as selecting the old version on boot. Literally hitting down and enter. Besides that, you never wait for updates to install.
  - wruza 2y ago
    I had it for a while. Then systemd came and everything changed. Can’t just grep logs and won’t bother learning how to handle that “journal”. Some programs don’t write logs at all, they just crash with an indicator in a systray that something crashed (the most useful info in the world, /s). Linux was being made by hackers who know how to debug things, not anymore. Now it’s new kids raised on rainbow unicorn nonsense. I feel myself in linux like I’m in early windows now, so what’s the benefit?
    - mjx0 2y ago
      Here's the command it sounds like you're looking for: `journalctl --grep="search string"` You can limit it by time period like this: `journalctl --since=-6h --grep="search string"` Note that there's a separate user journal (such as for things that show up with an indication in the systray), accessible like this when in a shell as that user: `journalctl --user --since=-6h --grep="search string"` Also, if you really want, SysV still exists and works. You can setup a system with SysV and syslog-ng and have the good ol' service run system and flat log files back.
      - wruza 2y ago
        Thanks, but today I avoid troubleshooting it, I just accept the roadblocks and escape to my windows+msys2 installation as soon as possible. I find this combination a better gnu-based system and better upside / downside balance, which is all I need on desktop. Even logs usually get written to text files cause windows system logs are rarely used by regular apps and unixy services. I’m not a gnu vs linux pedant, but gnu never let me down like that, and linux is really just an implementation detail underneath that I’m free to replace without compromising key functionality.
- electroly 2y ago
  If you restart several times in succession after an update (e.g. if the machine is stuck in a boot loop), Windows automatically rolls back the update. If the machine boots but you still want to rollback manually, the option is available for a period of time after the update is installed in Settings under Windows Update > Advanced options > Recovery. It's true that once the period of time is up (something like 10 days), you can't rollback any more, but I think your statement about Windows is untrue enough to warrant a correction. Rollback of Windows OS updates is there and it works. I have relied on this functionality in actual real life practice.
- tonyedgecombe 2y ago
  It's a shame as APDS does support snapshots and they appear to work well. Having said that I could foresee problems with rolling back the system partition but not the data.
dymk 2y ago
In theory I can make bluetooth and wifi and deep-sleep work with Linux, but am I actually able to fix it? No, and not for a lack of trying. If we're talking about practical ability to fix what goes wrong with my daily driver, then macOS still wins hands down.
- EasyMark 2y ago
  you can fix it by buying a linux compatible laptop/pc or building one with known compatibility.
  - dymk 2y ago
    Oh cool, all I have to do is buy new hardware when the software breaks during updates or when Mercury is in retrograde
    - nine_k 2y ago
      Frankly, the same is still true for Windows. Not all WiFi and BT devices are created equal. Sometimes an update breaks them in subtle ways. Actually, I had fewer compatibility problems with Linux than I had with Windows, using absolutely non-esoteric hardware, like Thinkpad laptops, Asus motherboards, etc. Hell, sometimes it was easier to set up a printer under Linux than under Windows (which, frankly, is more often the other way around). But usually Linux, and to a smaller extent, Windows, allows you to cobble your own solution if a solid predefined solution is not available. MacOS is much more often a "my way or highway" kind of environment. Some enjoy it; I don't.
    - michaelmrose 2y ago
      Alternatively buy laptops that come with Linux or at least are known to be well supported. Whenever I buy a new piece of hardware of any sort I end up reading lots of spec sheets, reviews, and articles and comparing choices according to a whole range of desirable features. Making Linux support one of them hardly makes it any more complicated. If nothing else search for product category + Linux then find a list of recommendations and then google choices that look good looking for unbiased critique focusing especially on people claiming systemic flaws in design that effect all units.
apatheticonion 2y ago
I'm waiting with bated breath for the day I can run Linux with full hardware acceleration on a MBP or laptop of equivalent quality. Everywhere I look in the tech world there is so much potential for incredible products just out of reach because of bad software forced on us by anti-competitive practices. Apple. You're the richest company on Earth. For the love of god, let me use my "pro" device to do professional work. I am overseas right now and am quite literally typing this from an AMD mini PC with my MBP set up as a second monitor I interact with via a network based mouse/keyboard sharing application. It really hurts the promise of portability if I need to carry a second computer with me because my MBP is _nerfed by software_ to prevent me from using it for everything I do.
whitehexagon 2y ago
I'm part way down this path. I bought a 2nd-hand M1 that only runs Asahi Linux (mainly for OpenGL/Vulkan and being able to use the unified memory for local LLMs). Still trying to find replacement apps to fully transition away from my old mac. Especially, I'd love to find a tool as great as SuperDuper for my backups. I've been running it for 16 years now, including some full restores along the way. Thanks to the devs for a dependable tool! Pretty sure I used it to migrate laptops, which I imagine is also something that would be more tricky with later macos versions. Anyway, I hope apple fix this bug soon. If not, then I'll look forward to buying a linux license for SuperDuper one day.

kelnos 2y ago

And not just that: if an update breaks my Linux install, I can figure out what broke it and roll back to an older version. Rolling back updates on macOS or Windows is just... not really a thing, at least not without a full reinstall, assuming you even have installation media for older versions these days.

com2kid 2y ago
Windows automatically save a restore point before updates are installed and rolling back - assuming the machine isn't bricked - is really simple.
- FredPret 2y ago
  Windows Update once borked my overnight ML job to install “critical updates; reboot required” on my desktop. I bought a MacBook the next day and put Linux on that desktop. 100% happier.
bsder 2y ago
It's actually really difficult to roll back a MacOS machine to an earlier OS even with a full reinstall. You either have to make MacOS backup disks immediately upon opening the machine, or you have to find MacOS installation disks from the dodgy high seas.
- jasomill 2y ago
  Not really difficult to reinstall every major Intel Mac OS release, at least, as they're all downloadable from Apple in one way or another: 1. You can reinstall "the version of macOS that came with your Mac or the closest version that’s still available" via Internet Recovery[1]. 2. You can download installers for every major release back to High Sierra from Apple via the App Store[2] or directly from Apple's update servers using a tool like installinstallmacos[3]. 3. You can download installers for Sierra, El Capitan, Yosemite, Mountain Lion, and Lion directly from the Apple support site[2]. 3. You can download Snow Leopard and Leopard from the Apple developer site[4] (free registration required; paid membership possibly required). Note that the downloads on the developer site are the 10.x.0 retail builds, which may not be compatible with all Macs that shipped with a later build. In this case, assuming the version you need is no longer available via Internet Recovery, you'll probably need to install and patch on an older machine, then transfer the patched install to the target via disk swapping, imaging, or NetInstall, or to install and patch directly to the target machine's hard drive using Target Disk Mode (or else track down a copy of the model-specific restore DVDs that shipped with the target). Downloads from the App Store and support site should always be the latest point release, so this should only be a problem if you want to install Snow Leopard or Leopard on a post-release machine. Installing non-final point releases is admittedly problematic: you can download some but not all x.y.0 builds from the developer site, some but not all patches from the support site, and a few x.y.(z < latest) installers from Apple update servers, but AFAIK there's no way to get an arbitrary point release of any version unless you can find someone who has a copy saved. Though I wouldn't even be a little surprised if older patch releases were still available, unadvertised, somewhere on some public Apple Web server, given that you can still download System 6.0.3 (released October 1990; last supported Mac was the Classic, discontinued September 1992) if you know the correct URLs[5]. [1] https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/use-macos-recovery-on-an-intel-based-mac-mchl338cf9a8/mac https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/use-macos-recovery-... [2] https://support.apple.com/en-us/102662 https://support.apple.com/en-us/102662 [3] https://github.com/munki/macadmin-scripts https://github.com/munki/macadmin-scripts [4] https://developer.apple.com/download/all/ https://developer.apple.com/download/all/ [5] http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/English-North_American/Macintosh/System/Older_System/System_6.0.x/SSW_6.0.3_Disk1of4.sea.bin http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Soft... http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/English-North_American/Macintosh/System/Older_System/System_6.0.x/SSW_6.0.3_Disk2of4.sea.bin http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Soft... http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/English-North_American/Macintosh/System/Older_System/System_6.0.x/SSW_6.0.3_Disk3of4.sea.bin http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Soft... http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/English-North_American/Macintosh/System/Older_System/System_6.0.x/SSW_6.0.3_Disk4of4.sea.bin http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Soft...
- tonyedgecombe 2y ago
  >or you have to find MacOS installation disks from the dodgy high seas. Mist[1] downloads them directly from Apple. [1] https://github.com/ninxsoft/Mist https://github.com/ninxsoft/Mist or https://github.com/ninxsoft/mist-cli https://github.com/ninxsoft/mist-cli
n144q 2y ago
You can. Most Linux users can't -- I say 90%, if not 99%. Most Linux users are just users, many of which don't know how to use tar or xargs without looking it up, very few have the technical knowledge and capability of figuring out "what broke it".
- akvadrako 2y ago
  Rollbacks on image based distros like Fedora Silverblue are as easy as selecting the old version on boot. Literally hitting down and enter. Besides that, you never wait for updates to install.
- wruza 2y ago
  I had it for a while. Then systemd came and everything changed. Can’t just grep logs and won’t bother learning how to handle that “journal”. Some programs don’t write logs at all, they just crash with an indicator in a systray that something crashed (the most useful info in the world, /s). Linux was being made by hackers who know how to debug things, not anymore. Now it’s new kids raised on rainbow unicorn nonsense. I feel myself in linux like I’m in early windows now, so what’s the benefit?
  - mjx0 2y ago
    Here's the command it sounds like you're looking for: `journalctl --grep="search string"` You can limit it by time period like this: `journalctl --since=-6h --grep="search string"` Note that there's a separate user journal (such as for things that show up with an indication in the systray), accessible like this when in a shell as that user: `journalctl --user --since=-6h --grep="search string"` Also, if you really want, SysV still exists and works. You can setup a system with SysV and syslog-ng and have the good ol' service run system and flat log files back.
    - wruza 2y ago
      Thanks, but today I avoid troubleshooting it, I just accept the roadblocks and escape to my windows+msys2 installation as soon as possible. I find this combination a better gnu-based system and better upside / downside balance, which is all I need on desktop. Even logs usually get written to text files cause windows system logs are rarely used by regular apps and unixy services. I’m not a gnu vs linux pedant, but gnu never let me down like that, and linux is really just an implementation detail underneath that I’m free to replace without compromising key functionality.
electroly 2y ago
If you restart several times in succession after an update (e.g. if the machine is stuck in a boot loop), Windows automatically rolls back the update. If the machine boots but you still want to rollback manually, the option is available for a period of time after the update is installed in Settings under Windows Update > Advanced options > Recovery. It's true that once the period of time is up (something like 10 days), you can't rollback any more, but I think your statement about Windows is untrue enough to warrant a correction. Rollback of Windows OS updates is there and it works. I have relied on this functionality in actual real life practice.
tonyedgecombe 2y ago
It's a shame as APDS does support snapshots and they appear to work well. Having said that I could foresee problems with rolling back the system partition but not the data.

dymk 2y ago

In theory I can make bluetooth and wifi and deep-sleep work with Linux, but am I actually able to fix it? No, and not for a lack of trying. If we're talking about practical ability to fix what goes wrong with my daily driver, then macOS still wins hands down.

EasyMark 2y ago
you can fix it by buying a linux compatible laptop/pc or building one with known compatibility.
- dymk 2y ago
  Oh cool, all I have to do is buy new hardware when the software breaks during updates or when Mercury is in retrograde
  - nine_k 2y ago
    Frankly, the same is still true for Windows. Not all WiFi and BT devices are created equal. Sometimes an update breaks them in subtle ways. Actually, I had fewer compatibility problems with Linux than I had with Windows, using absolutely non-esoteric hardware, like Thinkpad laptops, Asus motherboards, etc. Hell, sometimes it was easier to set up a printer under Linux than under Windows (which, frankly, is more often the other way around). But usually Linux, and to a smaller extent, Windows, allows you to cobble your own solution if a solid predefined solution is not available. MacOS is much more often a "my way or highway" kind of environment. Some enjoy it; I don't.
  - michaelmrose 2y ago
    Alternatively buy laptops that come with Linux or at least are known to be well supported. Whenever I buy a new piece of hardware of any sort I end up reading lots of spec sheets, reviews, and articles and comparing choices according to a whole range of desirable features. Making Linux support one of them hardly makes it any more complicated. If nothing else search for product category + Linux then find a list of recommendations and then google choices that look good looking for unbiased critique focusing especially on people claiming systemic flaws in design that effect all units.

apatheticonion 2y ago

I'm waiting with bated breath for the day I can run Linux with full hardware acceleration on a MBP or laptop of equivalent quality. Everywhere I look in the tech world there is so much potential for incredible products just out of reach because of bad software forced on us by anti-competitive practices. Apple. You're the richest company on Earth. For the love of god, let me use my "pro" device to do professional work. I am overseas right now and am quite literally typing this from an AMD mini PC with my MBP set up as a second monitor I interact with via a network based mouse/keyboard sharing application. It really hurts the promise of portability if I need to carry a second computer with me because my MBP is _nerfed by software_ to prevent me from using it for everything I do.

whitehexagon 2y ago

I'm part way down this path. I bought a 2nd-hand M1 that only runs Asahi Linux (mainly for OpenGL/Vulkan and being able to use the unified memory for local LLMs). Still trying to find replacement apps to fully transition away from my old mac. Especially, I'd love to find a tool as great as SuperDuper for my backups. I've been running it for 16 years now, including some full restores along the way. Thanks to the devs for a dependable tool! Pretty sure I used it to migrate laptops, which I imagine is also something that would be more tricky with later macos versions. Anyway, I hope apple fix this bug soon. If not, then I'll look forward to buying a linux license for SuperDuper one day.