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I'm not a Pompeii expert, but from what I understand Pliny the Younger was there, witnessed the eruption first-hand, and barely survived to tell the tale. Which

I'm not a Pompeii expert, but from what I understand Pliny the Younger was there, witnessed the eruption first-hand, and barely survived to tell the tale. Which he did, in a book that has survived to the present day. He gave the date of 24 August, year 79. Why was this ever in doubt?

ch4s3 2y ago
Confirming the date doesn’t mean that it was in doubt, it’s just new evidence that strengthens his account.
- jeremyjh 2y ago
  You are right, its the content of TFA that tells us it was in doubt.
defrost 2y ago
His uncle, Pliny the Elder, was closer and died in Stabiae, a town close to Pompeii that was partially covered in ash, while attempting to rescue a friend. Pliny the Younger was across the Bay of Naples and witnessed the eruption from a distance. Of interest, the two letters written by Pliny the Younger: https://igppweb.ucsd.edu/~gabi/sio15/lectures/volcanoes/pliny.html https://igppweb.ucsd.edu/~gabi/sio15/lectures/volcanoes/plin... ( hosted at the Institute of Geophysics and Planetary Physics as being the first recorded witnessing of a volcanic eruption ) The date is likely to be accurate as Pliny the Elder's will formerly adopted Pliny the Younger as a "son" and left him a considerable fortune. The major eruption occurred in cycles over two days, subsequent ash falls that continued to kill may have persisted a week. It's possible that 50 years on there may be some inaccuracy in the account wrt dates as Pliny the Younger may have referenced documents that dated when his uncles estate was settled rather than the date of his death.
- adastra22 2y ago
  He saw it with his own eyes, making him a primary source. I would say that counts as "being there." As you say, this is a life-transforming event for Pliney the Younger. For him to get the date off by an entire season is quite a stretch.
  - defrost 2y ago
    Sure. Although it's not the case that he barely survived. But your question was why was his account of the date ever in doubt. The answer is he wrote about it fifty years later in his 70's. Did he have the date tattooed on his leg a day later? Did he get the date from an old newspaper he had lying about the house? While he may be certain about his recollection of the date there is reasonable uncertainty about the certainty of a 70 year quoting a date from 5 decades past. The question of the date currently has something like a one month window plus/minus .. so there's general agreement that it happened in the later part of 79 BC. > For him to get the date off by an entire season is quite a stretch. In my own experience it's not at all uncommon in the septuagenarian, octogenarian, and nonagenarian crowd to be off by that much in their stories.
    - INGSOCIALITE 2y ago
      what date did 9/11 happen? it was a tuesday. i'll never forget that.
      - eszed 2y ago
        I could have told you it was a weekday, because I was at work, but I'll take your word for it being specifically a Tuesday. I think 9/11 is a bit of a cheat, though, because it's world-wide referenced by it's date. How many people, a couple of generations on, would remember the precise dates of, say, JFK's assassination or the moon landing? (I know the second, but not the first, and I was a history major!)
        WalterBright 2y ago
        I've read 3 or 4 detailed books about the assassination, but I don't recall the exact date because it was not interesting to me.
        throwaway9385 2y ago
        > How many people, a couple of generations on, would remember the precise dates The people who witnessed Pompeii in person probably remembers it pretty well. This is why I trust his recollection, even if Pliny wrote it down decades later. It's also not unreasonable to assume he talked about it several times between the event and when it was written down, so that it was easy to remember the details.
antman 2y ago
Pliny the older was there, and died there. Pliny the Younger was his nephew, did not want to interrupt his studying and did not escort his uncle to the boat, he saw from the other side of the bay (misenium) and wrote two letters a few decades later to describe what happened.
rwmj 2y ago
"Book that has survived to the present day" isn't really how it works unfortunately. (Maybe it will if we manage to recover those blackened scrolls!) What actually survives are manuscripts which were copied from earlier manuscripts (iteratively). The ones we have are from the middle ages, usually copied by monks. It's very possible that a transcription error was made during this copying. In fact there's a whole field of study trying to second guess what the scribe might have miscopied, studying manuscripts, palimpsests and so on. The British Museum in London has an excellent collection of manuscripts, with many now digitized: https://www.bl.uk/research/digitised-manuscripts/ https://www.bl.uk/research/digitised-manuscripts/ (Unfortunately I can't seem to view the MS at this link, and they don't have Epistulae of Pliny the Younger which contains the two letters about Pompeii)

ch4s3 2y ago

Confirming the date doesn’t mean that it was in doubt, it’s just new evidence that strengthens his account.

jeremyjh 2y ago
You are right, its the content of TFA that tells us it was in doubt.

defrost 2y ago

His uncle, Pliny the Elder, was closer and died in Stabiae, a town close to Pompeii that was partially covered in ash, while attempting to rescue a friend. Pliny the Younger was across the Bay of Naples and witnessed the eruption from a distance. Of interest, the two letters written by Pliny the Younger: https://igppweb.ucsd.edu/~gabi/sio15/lectures/volcanoes/pliny.html https://igppweb.ucsd.edu/~gabi/sio15/lectures/volcanoes/plin... ( hosted at the Institute of Geophysics and Planetary Physics as being the first recorded witnessing of a volcanic eruption ) The date is likely to be accurate as Pliny the Elder's will formerly adopted Pliny the Younger as a "son" and left him a considerable fortune. The major eruption occurred in cycles over two days, subsequent ash falls that continued to kill may have persisted a week. It's possible that 50 years on there may be some inaccuracy in the account wrt dates as Pliny the Younger may have referenced documents that dated when his uncles estate was settled rather than the date of his death.

adastra22 2y ago
He saw it with his own eyes, making him a primary source. I would say that counts as "being there." As you say, this is a life-transforming event for Pliney the Younger. For him to get the date off by an entire season is quite a stretch.
- defrost 2y ago
  Sure. Although it's not the case that he barely survived. But your question was why was his account of the date ever in doubt. The answer is he wrote about it fifty years later in his 70's. Did he have the date tattooed on his leg a day later? Did he get the date from an old newspaper he had lying about the house? While he may be certain about his recollection of the date there is reasonable uncertainty about the certainty of a 70 year quoting a date from 5 decades past. The question of the date currently has something like a one month window plus/minus .. so there's general agreement that it happened in the later part of 79 BC. > For him to get the date off by an entire season is quite a stretch. In my own experience it's not at all uncommon in the septuagenarian, octogenarian, and nonagenarian crowd to be off by that much in their stories.
  - INGSOCIALITE 2y ago
    what date did 9/11 happen? it was a tuesday. i'll never forget that.
    - eszed 2y ago
      I could have told you it was a weekday, because I was at work, but I'll take your word for it being specifically a Tuesday. I think 9/11 is a bit of a cheat, though, because it's world-wide referenced by it's date. How many people, a couple of generations on, would remember the precise dates of, say, JFK's assassination or the moon landing? (I know the second, but not the first, and I was a history major!)
      - WalterBright 2y ago
        I've read 3 or 4 detailed books about the assassination, but I don't recall the exact date because it was not interesting to me.
      - throwaway9385 2y ago
        > How many people, a couple of generations on, would remember the precise dates The people who witnessed Pompeii in person probably remembers it pretty well. This is why I trust his recollection, even if Pliny wrote it down decades later. It's also not unreasonable to assume he talked about it several times between the event and when it was written down, so that it was easy to remember the details.

antman 2y ago

Pliny the older was there, and died there. Pliny the Younger was his nephew, did not want to interrupt his studying and did not escort his uncle to the boat, he saw from the other side of the bay (misenium) and wrote two letters a few decades later to describe what happened.

rwmj 2y ago

"Book that has survived to the present day" isn't really how it works unfortunately. (Maybe it will if we manage to recover those blackened scrolls!) What actually survives are manuscripts which were copied from earlier manuscripts (iteratively). The ones we have are from the middle ages, usually copied by monks. It's very possible that a transcription error was made during this copying. In fact there's a whole field of study trying to second guess what the scribe might have miscopied, studying manuscripts, palimpsests and so on. The British Museum in London has an excellent collection of manuscripts, with many now digitized: https://www.bl.uk/research/digitised-manuscripts/ https://www.bl.uk/research/digitised-manuscripts/ (Unfortunately I can't seem to view the MS at this link, and they don't have Epistulae of Pliny the Younger which contains the two letters about Pompeii)