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In this context, "systems programmer" means someone who writes software with tight, direct affinity to the underlying system (i.e. hardware, OS). C and C++ stil

In this context, "systems programmer" means someone who writes software with tight, direct affinity to the underlying system (i.e. hardware, OS). C and C++ still dominate that world by huge measure. Presumably, you're thinking of systems in the more abstract sense: systems of more or less pure software components that model some domain. That's just not what this article is about.

crabbone 2y ago
C++ is a very rare guest in that world. Not really worth mentioning. You could probably find more Python in that world than C++. Certainly more Shell than C++. You could absolutely get a job as a system programmer not knowing and never touching C++, but not knowing Shell will not get you anywhere in that field. It doesn't really have to be direct or tight (not even sure what that might mean). I'm guessing you were trying to say that it has to have minimal overhead compared to theoretically possible performance, in which case that's not true at all (a lot of Linux services and management tools are written in Shell, which just isn't known for great performance at all).
- swatcoder 2y ago
  If it helps: among other examples, systems programming (as used here) characterizes much of what your Python and shell scripts call, whether commands or libraries. C was the overwhelming language of choice for a very long time, but C++ made steady and verysignificant inroads in the last 20 years. Objective-C and Java had/have niches. Rust and Go have traction and continue to gain more. Swift is working towards it. Actors and immutable types, which the GP mentioned, have less signifance here because they largely trade transparent resource management (which is critically important in many of these projects) for correctness guarantees and sophisticated domain modeling. That said, we can expect there to be more room for them, especially where implementations of those features are zero/low-overhead.
  - crabbone 2y ago
    Nah. C++ is still pretty much hated in that field. It's the reason Go or Rust exist, not a complement. C++ has very little (basically nothing) to do with what Python or Shell call. When I mention these languages in the context of system programming, I mean programs like, eg. ifup / ifdown or GRUB configuration, LDAP client utilities and so on. C++ was and still is an unwelcome guest in this area. It's not minimalist enough to be easy to use in constrained environments, but when resources allow it, there are better languages for any task you can think of. In my experience, the only people who insist on using C++ are the Visual C++ Windows programmers. But, overwhelming majority of system jobs aren't for MS Windows, so, the Visual C++ people can be safely ignored. In the same way how you can safely ignore Objective-C, when it comes to system programming. You can work in the field of system programming whole your life, switch dozens of companies and products, and never hit C++ or Objective-C requirement. They are too niche and unimportant in the large scheme of things. If, on the other hand, you were looking for a field where C++ is the most common language, then video games come to mind. Enterprise applications, especially targeting MS Windows, usually with a significant GUI component. It's really not meant, and doesn't work well as a system programming language. It's OK for application development (but there are better alternatives today). It survives due to the existing libraries and compilers, and, of course, expertise accumulated in programming community. But, that expertise and libraries are mostly in the fields mentioned above.
    - fp64 2y ago
      Check out this deep learning stuff people talk about. Torch is written in C++ using plenty CUDA (which is arguably a dialect of C++), and deals with all the resource management and hardware interfacing. People use python then interfacing with it. I don’t particular like how torch is designed and written, but that’s a different story. TensorFlow is c++ as well, in case you wondered. But maybe that all does not match your requirements for system programming? Try Haiku, at least back when it was BeOS I really liked that the whole OS was written in C++. I have a colleague who wrote some microcontroller code in C++ because he likes it so much and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that either.
      - crabbone 2y ago
- wakawaka28 2y ago
  There are more operating systems written in C++ than Go or Rust which you mention elsewhere. Microsoft Windows is the most popular operating system in the world and it's written in C++ primarily. C++ can be easily integrated anywhere C is used, provided hardware is good enough. System programmers are more likely to know C and C++ than Java, Go, or Rust. If a toaster has enough CPU to run Doom then I think your arguments against C++ "bloat" don't hold any water, and probably haven't made sense since the 90s. As far as mentioning shell and Python, I don't consider those primary system programmer tools. You might need to know them to be a good generalist *nix system programmer, but it's really tangential to whether C++ has a place in systems programming. Python and shell are in competition with Perl and Tcl, not with C++. To say that they are is like saying a carpenter is in competition with a welder because they both build stuff.
  - crabbone 2y ago
    > There are more operating systems written in C++ Those are all gimmicks. They aren't really worth considering if talking about system programming. Again, if you want to be a system programmer, and you want to know what languages will get you there, then C++ isn't in that list. It's unimportant. Can you use it for system programming? -- Yes, if you don't have better things to do with your life. Will it be a good choice? -- No, for virtually any problem that exists in that domain there will be a better pick. > Microsoft Windows is the most popular operating system in the world No it's not. It's a very niche operating system. It's the most popular operating system in the world of desktops. But, if we are selecting arbitrary electronics form-factor, then any operating system can be made the most popular in the world. Pretty sure FreeBSD is the most popular operating system in the world, if you choose that the only computers that matter are those that run FreeNAS. > C++ can be easily integrated anywhere C is used And so are Python, JavaScript, Rust, Ada, PostScript, Awk, Forth and many, many other languages. What's your point? > System programmers are more likely to know C and C++ than Java Tell me you've never worked in the field of system programming without telling me you've never worked in the field of system programming. Java is a very popular pick for writing management components for enterprise-grade system products. I've seen multiple storage products where the part of the product that did the storage part was written in C, but the management was written in Java. I've seen this more often than I've seen any C++ used in system programming. The problem is more cultural, probably. The Visual C++ programmers usually don't have a good grasp of what good system programming tools / practices would be. Just the very mention of C++ in one's resume would often be enough for that person not being invited to an interview. > I don't consider those primary system programmer tools. Why should anyone care about what you consider? Are you an expert in this field? So far you've shown complete lack of expertise...

crabbone 2y ago

C++ is a very rare guest in that world. Not really worth mentioning. You could probably find more Python in that world than C++. Certainly more Shell than C++. You could absolutely get a job as a system programmer not knowing and never touching C++, but not knowing Shell will not get you anywhere in that field. It doesn't really have to be direct or tight (not even sure what that might mean). I'm guessing you were trying to say that it has to have minimal overhead compared to theoretically possible performance, in which case that's not true at all (a lot of Linux services and management tools are written in Shell, which just isn't known for great performance at all).

swatcoder 2y ago
If it helps: among other examples, systems programming (as used here) characterizes much of what your Python and shell scripts call, whether commands or libraries. C was the overwhelming language of choice for a very long time, but C++ made steady and verysignificant inroads in the last 20 years. Objective-C and Java had/have niches. Rust and Go have traction and continue to gain more. Swift is working towards it. Actors and immutable types, which the GP mentioned, have less signifance here because they largely trade transparent resource management (which is critically important in many of these projects) for correctness guarantees and sophisticated domain modeling. That said, we can expect there to be more room for them, especially where implementations of those features are zero/low-overhead.
- crabbone 2y ago
  Nah. C++ is still pretty much hated in that field. It's the reason Go or Rust exist, not a complement. C++ has very little (basically nothing) to do with what Python or Shell call. When I mention these languages in the context of system programming, I mean programs like, eg. ifup / ifdown or GRUB configuration, LDAP client utilities and so on. C++ was and still is an unwelcome guest in this area. It's not minimalist enough to be easy to use in constrained environments, but when resources allow it, there are better languages for any task you can think of. In my experience, the only people who insist on using C++ are the Visual C++ Windows programmers. But, overwhelming majority of system jobs aren't for MS Windows, so, the Visual C++ people can be safely ignored. In the same way how you can safely ignore Objective-C, when it comes to system programming. You can work in the field of system programming whole your life, switch dozens of companies and products, and never hit C++ or Objective-C requirement. They are too niche and unimportant in the large scheme of things. If, on the other hand, you were looking for a field where C++ is the most common language, then video games come to mind. Enterprise applications, especially targeting MS Windows, usually with a significant GUI component. It's really not meant, and doesn't work well as a system programming language. It's OK for application development (but there are better alternatives today). It survives due to the existing libraries and compilers, and, of course, expertise accumulated in programming community. But, that expertise and libraries are mostly in the fields mentioned above.
  - fp64 2y ago
    Check out this deep learning stuff people talk about. Torch is written in C++ using plenty CUDA (which is arguably a dialect of C++), and deals with all the resource management and hardware interfacing. People use python then interfacing with it. I don’t particular like how torch is designed and written, but that’s a different story. TensorFlow is c++ as well, in case you wondered. But maybe that all does not match your requirements for system programming? Try Haiku, at least back when it was BeOS I really liked that the whole OS was written in C++. I have a colleague who wrote some microcontroller code in C++ because he likes it so much and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that either.
    - crabbone 2y ago
wakawaka28 2y ago
There are more operating systems written in C++ than Go or Rust which you mention elsewhere. Microsoft Windows is the most popular operating system in the world and it's written in C++ primarily. C++ can be easily integrated anywhere C is used, provided hardware is good enough. System programmers are more likely to know C and C++ than Java, Go, or Rust. If a toaster has enough CPU to run Doom then I think your arguments against C++ "bloat" don't hold any water, and probably haven't made sense since the 90s. As far as mentioning shell and Python, I don't consider those primary system programmer tools. You might need to know them to be a good generalist *nix system programmer, but it's really tangential to whether C++ has a place in systems programming. Python and shell are in competition with Perl and Tcl, not with C++. To say that they are is like saying a carpenter is in competition with a welder because they both build stuff.
- crabbone 2y ago
  > There are more operating systems written in C++ Those are all gimmicks. They aren't really worth considering if talking about system programming. Again, if you want to be a system programmer, and you want to know what languages will get you there, then C++ isn't in that list. It's unimportant. Can you use it for system programming? -- Yes, if you don't have better things to do with your life. Will it be a good choice? -- No, for virtually any problem that exists in that domain there will be a better pick. > Microsoft Windows is the most popular operating system in the world No it's not. It's a very niche operating system. It's the most popular operating system in the world of desktops. But, if we are selecting arbitrary electronics form-factor, then any operating system can be made the most popular in the world. Pretty sure FreeBSD is the most popular operating system in the world, if you choose that the only computers that matter are those that run FreeNAS. > C++ can be easily integrated anywhere C is used And so are Python, JavaScript, Rust, Ada, PostScript, Awk, Forth and many, many other languages. What's your point? > System programmers are more likely to know C and C++ than Java Tell me you've never worked in the field of system programming without telling me you've never worked in the field of system programming. Java is a very popular pick for writing management components for enterprise-grade system products. I've seen multiple storage products where the part of the product that did the storage part was written in C, but the management was written in Java. I've seen this more often than I've seen any C++ used in system programming. The problem is more cultural, probably. The Visual C++ programmers usually don't have a good grasp of what good system programming tools / practices would be. Just the very mention of C++ in one's resume would often be enough for that person not being invited to an interview. > I don't consider those primary system programmer tools. Why should anyone care about what you consider? Are you an expert in this field? So far you've shown complete lack of expertise...