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To anyone that thinks this is a bad idea honestly try doing a ride along (where you get to spend the day following a police officer). The amount of paperwork th

To anyone that thinks this is a bad idea honestly try doing a ride along (where you get to spend the day following a police officer). The amount of paperwork they do is insane - a single crash report can be 4+ pages long and the vast majority of the questions are incredibly menial.

GrantMoyer 2y ago
Okay, so get rid of the menial questions. If you can't get rid of them because they're important, then definitely don't use an ML model to make up answers for them.
- bean-weevil 2y ago
  This is the most important point in the entire thread.
  - kirkules 2y ago
    Agree, looking for the multi upvote button
heavyset_go 2y ago
I have a hard time caring. People's lives and freedoms are at stake. If they can't take the time to do their jobs, perhaps they should find another career.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  I don’t think that’s fair. It’s not about them disliking the work. It’s about me as a taxpayer wanting police officers to have time for policing. I want the most safety benefit for the money we spend. So I’m supportive of them using tools to be more efficient.
  - EA-3167 2y ago
    That paperwork, being careful that due process is followed and documented, is part of policing.
- edmundsauto 2y ago
  Then we’re going to need to spend waaaaay more money on policing, if we don’t allow any paperwork shortcuts. Imagine 2 hours per report for a 2 hour incident - we’d need to double the staffing versus a no paperwork force. Or just stop responding to nonviolent crime, which already happens. We’ve got to be realistic about the tradeoffs.
  - comex 2y ago
    Way more money compared to what? Not having AI is the status quo. Perhaps AI will free officers to spend more time responding to nonviolent crime, but that’s not exactly proven.
  - jazzyjackson 2y ago
    If they're too busy to do paperwork I'd rather they just not do the paperwork instead of having an AI produce garbage data that will be ingested by another AI down the line accepting it as gospel source material
  - heavyset_go 2y ago
    > Then we’re going to need to spend waaaaay more money on policing Don't believe it. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, cops earn more than software engineers in many states. Half, or more, of most municipal budgets go towards police salaries, benefits and pensions. Some of the highest paid public employees, if not the highest paid employees, on any government's payroll are police. Most cops sit in their cars for hours waiting for something to happen, often accruing overtime in the process. They have plenty of time to play Candy Crush, hard to believe they have no time for paperwork.
    - thegrim33 2y ago
      Well, your first claim that in "many states cops earn more than software engineers", seems completely untrue. I simply went on the BLS website (that you mentioned) and looked. In all 12 states with the lowest SDE salaries, the SDE mean wage is still higher than the police, and in all 10 states with the highest police salaries, their mean wage is still less than SDEs. I also spot checked other random states and have not found a single one where police get paid more. Look for yourself, data from May 2023: https://www.bls.gov/oes/2021/may/oes151252.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/2021/may/oes151252.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/2023/may/oes333051.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/2023/may/oes333051.htm
Buttons840 2y ago
It's a bad idea because the AI adds no signal, only noise. If the problem is that there are too many questions, then reduce the number of questions. There are probably many questions to help with filing reports and searching them later. It may no longer be necessary to have those fields if AI can deduce them from a single free form text field, for example. I hope the police apps keep track of exactly what words and inputs came from the officer, and which came from the AI.
ajb 2y ago
It would make more sense to just record everything they do. The reason for all this documentation is for disputes or court cases, but if you have a recording you can produce the documentation only if it's actually required. Of course, there's the problem that cops don't want to be recorded.
- thot_experiment 2y ago
  Not just recorded, the information needs to be publicly available. I shouldn't have to request this stuff, it should be transparently available and searchable. If we're going to use my tax dollars to fund the surveillance state at least give me the data.
  - trogdor 2y ago
    Strong disagree. Under many circumstances, law enforcement officers are allowed to enter places where people have a reasonable expectation of privacy. Just because the police are allowed in such locations doesn’t mean the general public should get to watch. Let’s say you fall in the shower and you are badly injured. You call 911, and the police are first to arrive. Officers enter your house and try to keep you calm until an ambulance arrives. You think police body camera footage of you, naked and injured on your bathroom floor, should be “transparently available and searchable”?
    - thot_experiment 2y ago
      I mean, I think probably yes, and likely that society would be better off if people agreed with me but I understand that my view is significantly outside the norm. I will happily agree that for practical reasons we can agree on some limits, however I think we should still err on the side of transparency in these situations. How do you feel about the weaker claim that footage of all police action in public spaces should be available and searchable?
      - trogdor 2y ago
        >How do you feel about the weaker claim that footage of all police action in public spaces should be available and searchable? I have trouble with that, too. Being a crime victim should not mean that video footage of yourself in the immediate aftermath of the crime is publicly available and searchable. Imagine that a young girl is walking her family dog in a park, and that she is attacked and raped. The girl calls the police, who respond to the park. I don’t think that footage should be publicly available and searchable. Also, “footage of all police action in public spaces” would routinely include information like people’s names, addresses, phone numbers, and social security numbers. I am in favor of transparency, but I don’t think that absolute transparency would be a net benefit to society.
AzzyHN 2y ago
In your car crash example, that police report could be a key piece of evidence in a civil case that causes one party to need to pay up rather than the other. The amount they have to pay could be enough to ruin their life. Of course, that's to say nothing of criminal cases
soulofmischief 2y ago
As the unfortunate target of a maliciously dishonest and editorialized police report which led to years of court appearances, I would at least like the cop to have to work a bit.
ulfw 2y ago
Then the solution is to change the forms to fill out. Filling out forms with meaningless dumb AI filler bla is not the way to go. If the task to write 4+ pages is menial reform the questions asked so it's 1 page and meaningful. THAT is the right way and not AI LLM blabber

GrantMoyer 2y ago

Okay, so get rid of the menial questions. If you can't get rid of them because they're important, then definitely don't use an ML model to make up answers for them.

bean-weevil 2y ago
This is the most important point in the entire thread.
- kirkules 2y ago
  Agree, looking for the multi upvote button

heavyset_go 2y ago

I have a hard time caring. People's lives and freedoms are at stake. If they can't take the time to do their jobs, perhaps they should find another career.

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
I don’t think that’s fair. It’s not about them disliking the work. It’s about me as a taxpayer wanting police officers to have time for policing. I want the most safety benefit for the money we spend. So I’m supportive of them using tools to be more efficient.
- EA-3167 2y ago
  That paperwork, being careful that due process is followed and documented, is part of policing.
edmundsauto 2y ago
Then we’re going to need to spend waaaaay more money on policing, if we don’t allow any paperwork shortcuts. Imagine 2 hours per report for a 2 hour incident - we’d need to double the staffing versus a no paperwork force. Or just stop responding to nonviolent crime, which already happens. We’ve got to be realistic about the tradeoffs.
- comex 2y ago
  Way more money compared to what? Not having AI is the status quo. Perhaps AI will free officers to spend more time responding to nonviolent crime, but that’s not exactly proven.
- jazzyjackson 2y ago
  If they're too busy to do paperwork I'd rather they just not do the paperwork instead of having an AI produce garbage data that will be ingested by another AI down the line accepting it as gospel source material
- heavyset_go 2y ago
  > Then we’re going to need to spend waaaaay more money on policing Don't believe it. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, cops earn more than software engineers in many states. Half, or more, of most municipal budgets go towards police salaries, benefits and pensions. Some of the highest paid public employees, if not the highest paid employees, on any government's payroll are police. Most cops sit in their cars for hours waiting for something to happen, often accruing overtime in the process. They have plenty of time to play Candy Crush, hard to believe they have no time for paperwork.
  - thegrim33 2y ago
    Well, your first claim that in "many states cops earn more than software engineers", seems completely untrue. I simply went on the BLS website (that you mentioned) and looked. In all 12 states with the lowest SDE salaries, the SDE mean wage is still higher than the police, and in all 10 states with the highest police salaries, their mean wage is still less than SDEs. I also spot checked other random states and have not found a single one where police get paid more. Look for yourself, data from May 2023: https://www.bls.gov/oes/2021/may/oes151252.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/2021/may/oes151252.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/2023/may/oes333051.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/2023/may/oes333051.htm

Buttons840 2y ago

It's a bad idea because the AI adds no signal, only noise. If the problem is that there are too many questions, then reduce the number of questions. There are probably many questions to help with filing reports and searching them later. It may no longer be necessary to have those fields if AI can deduce them from a single free form text field, for example. I hope the police apps keep track of exactly what words and inputs came from the officer, and which came from the AI.

ajb 2y ago

It would make more sense to just record everything they do. The reason for all this documentation is for disputes or court cases, but if you have a recording you can produce the documentation only if it's actually required. Of course, there's the problem that cops don't want to be recorded.

thot_experiment 2y ago
Not just recorded, the information needs to be publicly available. I shouldn't have to request this stuff, it should be transparently available and searchable. If we're going to use my tax dollars to fund the surveillance state at least give me the data.
- trogdor 2y ago
  Strong disagree. Under many circumstances, law enforcement officers are allowed to enter places where people have a reasonable expectation of privacy. Just because the police are allowed in such locations doesn’t mean the general public should get to watch. Let’s say you fall in the shower and you are badly injured. You call 911, and the police are first to arrive. Officers enter your house and try to keep you calm until an ambulance arrives. You think police body camera footage of you, naked and injured on your bathroom floor, should be “transparently available and searchable”?
  - thot_experiment 2y ago
    I mean, I think probably yes, and likely that society would be better off if people agreed with me but I understand that my view is significantly outside the norm. I will happily agree that for practical reasons we can agree on some limits, however I think we should still err on the side of transparency in these situations. How do you feel about the weaker claim that footage of all police action in public spaces should be available and searchable?
    - trogdor 2y ago
      >How do you feel about the weaker claim that footage of all police action in public spaces should be available and searchable? I have trouble with that, too. Being a crime victim should not mean that video footage of yourself in the immediate aftermath of the crime is publicly available and searchable. Imagine that a young girl is walking her family dog in a park, and that she is attacked and raped. The girl calls the police, who respond to the park. I don’t think that footage should be publicly available and searchable. Also, “footage of all police action in public spaces” would routinely include information like people’s names, addresses, phone numbers, and social security numbers. I am in favor of transparency, but I don’t think that absolute transparency would be a net benefit to society.

AzzyHN 2y ago

In your car crash example, that police report could be a key piece of evidence in a civil case that causes one party to need to pay up rather than the other. The amount they have to pay could be enough to ruin their life. Of course, that's to say nothing of criminal cases

soulofmischief 2y ago

As the unfortunate target of a maliciously dishonest and editorialized police report which led to years of court appearances, I would at least like the cop to have to work a bit.

ulfw 2y ago

Then the solution is to change the forms to fill out. Filling out forms with meaningless dumb AI filler bla is not the way to go. If the task to write 4+ pages is menial reform the questions asked so it's 1 page and meaningful. THAT is the right way and not AI LLM blabber