4 ms·

Right, but there's a problem - the UK is in a real mess! Social services, medical services, all the services are underfunded and crumbling. There is a cost of l

Right, but there's a problem - the UK is in a real mess! Social services, medical services, all the services are underfunded and crumbling. There is a cost of living crisis as wages have barely moved in 15 years, food banks are everywhere, and now "multibanks" are popping up. Our country first needs to ensure that people can choose to live, and if needed be cared for; nobody should feel pushed into assisted dying because of financial reasons. I say this as someone who will be in pain for the rest of my life, and euthanasia has been on my mind at times. As much as I might "benefit" from such a law in the future, I don't believe it should be passed until we have a stable society with good services and safety nets.

jncfhnb 2y ago
What if we triple your pain?
01jonny01 2y ago
100% you articulated exactly what I couldn't - thank you. It feels very wrong to be considering this in the UK when we are on the decline. Espcially since the current government have demonstrated that they don't really care about pensioners.
- quasse 2y ago
  OTOH, it's interesting that you and the parent comment are basically saying "We, as a country, are failing our pensioners so badly that death has become the more appealing option for many of them. Therefore, we must trap them here with us until we improve the conditions that lead to them making that bargain (which we will never do)" Taking away someone's right to assisted dying because you live in a society that has made death preferable to living for many seems like a totally orthogonal leap of logic. That doesn't reduce net suffering one iota.
  - 01jonny01 2y ago
    I am eluding perverse incentives by the government to employ such a scheme. I am sure if they use pure logic and numbers it makes sense to roll this out, especially at time like this. It would indeed help the balance the books and get rid of that pesky voter base who typically vote right. The decision to offer assisted dying needs to be based on compassion and logic, not on logic alone.
jajko 2y ago
That's a hard subject - while I think I get your need to have a better safety net (so folks aren't tempted even more to opt out of existence), by delaying it, such choice is also causing indescribable suffering to patients now, and trust me those are not small number of people in topics where 1 is too many. A good 'pleasant' death rather a rarity. Perfect is usually the enemy of good.
cardanome 2y ago
That is a very good point. To be fair, that is also the one issue with abortion that is legitimate. I am very pro-choice but also horrified by the reality that women sometimes are pressured to have abortion for economic reasons. Still I think that allowing abortion is a net good even when there is still economic imbalance. As for euthanasia, I think it is similar. We need to fight for a stable society with good social safety and access to medical services for all while also giving people the rights to decide on how they want to go. (At least for older people, I think for younger people there is too much risk they would have changed their mind and should only be allowed when it is medically certain that they will die soon). My hope is when cases of euthanasia for economic reasons happen, people will be horrified and it will put pressure into improving the system. But maybe I am naive.
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  > My hope is when cases of euthanasia for economic reasons happen, people will be horrified and it will put pressure into improving the system. But maybe I am naive. I predict it will be the opposite. Economic reasons will pressure people to support euthanasia.
neom 2y ago
Google just results in weird crypto junk, so if you'll pardon me: what is a "multibank"?
- reanimus 2y ago
  Add 'UK' to the search and you get a result pretty easily: https://themultibank.co.uk/ https://themultibank.co.uk/
- jacobgkau 2y ago
  The link the other person posted didn't make it as immediately clear as a definition I found-- it's basically multiple types of charity banks (e.g. food bank, clothing bank, bedding bank, hygiene bank) operated as one entity.
CJefferson 2y ago
I see your point, but the problem in the UK is we seem to have ground to a halt because "everything is awful". Not the same argument, but near where I live people have campaigned against new houses for 15 years, because the roads aren't good enough, and the doctors and dentists aren't good enough, but those things haven't been good enough for 15 years, and they probably aren't going to get better. I fear there is basically no chance we are going to fix the NHS to a high standard in 20 years, if ever, at this point. In that case, we can't simply do nothing until everything is improved.
LorenPechtel 2y ago
What was supposed to be done? Such vomiting isn't due to any medical failing, it's due to the bowels being completely blocked. It's not going out the other end, eventually it comes back up. The only fix is to go in there surgically and fix the blockage--but in a case like what you're replying to obviously that wasn't an option.
ElevenLathe 2y ago
The US is a mess too, and isn't likely to get better. This is in fact the reason I firmly hope some form of legal assisted suicide is available when I get old enough to need it. Societies with no safety net, where anyone -- even the reasonably well-off, like myself -- can end up unhoused with no medical care through a stroke or two of bad luck, need this right the most. If we had a functioning system for providing the necessities of life for everyone, suicide would obviously be less necessary.

jncfhnb 2y ago

What if we triple your pain?

01jonny01 2y ago

100% you articulated exactly what I couldn't - thank you. It feels very wrong to be considering this in the UK when we are on the decline. Espcially since the current government have demonstrated that they don't really care about pensioners.

quasse 2y ago
OTOH, it's interesting that you and the parent comment are basically saying "We, as a country, are failing our pensioners so badly that death has become the more appealing option for many of them. Therefore, we must trap them here with us until we improve the conditions that lead to them making that bargain (which we will never do)" Taking away someone's right to assisted dying because you live in a society that has made death preferable to living for many seems like a totally orthogonal leap of logic. That doesn't reduce net suffering one iota.
- 01jonny01 2y ago
  I am eluding perverse incentives by the government to employ such a scheme. I am sure if they use pure logic and numbers it makes sense to roll this out, especially at time like this. It would indeed help the balance the books and get rid of that pesky voter base who typically vote right. The decision to offer assisted dying needs to be based on compassion and logic, not on logic alone.

jajko 2y ago

That's a hard subject - while I think I get your need to have a better safety net (so folks aren't tempted even more to opt out of existence), by delaying it, such choice is also causing indescribable suffering to patients now, and trust me those are not small number of people in topics where 1 is too many. A good 'pleasant' death rather a rarity. Perfect is usually the enemy of good.

cardanome 2y ago

That is a very good point. To be fair, that is also the one issue with abortion that is legitimate. I am very pro-choice but also horrified by the reality that women sometimes are pressured to have abortion for economic reasons. Still I think that allowing abortion is a net good even when there is still economic imbalance. As for euthanasia, I think it is similar. We need to fight for a stable society with good social safety and access to medical services for all while also giving people the rights to decide on how they want to go. (At least for older people, I think for younger people there is too much risk they would have changed their mind and should only be allowed when it is medically certain that they will die soon). My hope is when cases of euthanasia for economic reasons happen, people will be horrified and it will put pressure into improving the system. But maybe I am naive.

lotsofpulp 2y ago
> My hope is when cases of euthanasia for economic reasons happen, people will be horrified and it will put pressure into improving the system. But maybe I am naive. I predict it will be the opposite. Economic reasons will pressure people to support euthanasia.

neom 2y ago

Google just results in weird crypto junk, so if you'll pardon me: what is a "multibank"?

reanimus 2y ago
Add 'UK' to the search and you get a result pretty easily: https://themultibank.co.uk/ https://themultibank.co.uk/
jacobgkau 2y ago
The link the other person posted didn't make it as immediately clear as a definition I found-- it's basically multiple types of charity banks (e.g. food bank, clothing bank, bedding bank, hygiene bank) operated as one entity.

CJefferson 2y ago

I see your point, but the problem in the UK is we seem to have ground to a halt because "everything is awful". Not the same argument, but near where I live people have campaigned against new houses for 15 years, because the roads aren't good enough, and the doctors and dentists aren't good enough, but those things haven't been good enough for 15 years, and they probably aren't going to get better. I fear there is basically no chance we are going to fix the NHS to a high standard in 20 years, if ever, at this point. In that case, we can't simply do nothing until everything is improved.

LorenPechtel 2y ago

What was supposed to be done? Such vomiting isn't due to any medical failing, it's due to the bowels being completely blocked. It's not going out the other end, eventually it comes back up. The only fix is to go in there surgically and fix the blockage--but in a case like what you're replying to obviously that wasn't an option.

ElevenLathe 2y ago

The US is a mess too, and isn't likely to get better. This is in fact the reason I firmly hope some form of legal assisted suicide is available when I get old enough to need it. Societies with no safety net, where anyone -- even the reasonably well-off, like myself -- can end up unhoused with no medical care through a stroke or two of bad luck, need this right the most. If we had a functioning system for providing the necessities of life for everyone, suicide would obviously be less necessary.