3 ms·

I disagree completely. In the eyes of some modern fans, the popularity of engines and eval bars has reduced chess to an intellectual and computational exercise.

by hilux 2y ago

I disagree completely. In the eyes of some modern fans, the popularity of engines and eval bars has reduced chess to an intellectual and computational exercise. It's too easy to say "bad moves" and "blunder" when Stockfish is giving you all the answers! In reality, chess is a fighting contest between two flesh-and-blood humans. And that's what we see throughout this exciting match, and in this final game. Gukesh won because of his greater fighting spirit throughout the match, which is as it should be. (Similar to how Ding played the daring move ...Rg6 in the final game of his match against Nepo.)

benatkin 2y ago
That isn't how most appreciate sports. People are hoping for the contenders to be at the top of their game towards the end of the championships. Nobody says "Hey, at least this has a human touch! I'm sick of basketball video games." if the NBA finals are relatively boring one year. I think maybe "that was a absolutely horrible finish" got interpreted as saying that the win wasn't well earned. That's not how I saw it at all.
- hilux 2y ago
  > Nobody says "Hey, at least this has a human touch! I'm sick of basketball video games." if the NBA finals are relatively boring one year. Complete strawman. You are one of very few people who think this match was "relatively boring."
  - glenstein 2y ago
    I'm not seeing the strawman. You did say: >In reality, chess is a fighting contest between two flesh-and-blood humans And they weren't suggesting that the match was boring so far as I can tell, but more generally, they were responding to your idea that high level play is intellectualized in a way that loses the human touch.
    - hilux 2y ago
      By "strawman" I'm referring to use of "relatively boring" in the NBA parallel, as if that's a generally accepted description of this match.
      - glenstein 2y ago
        Again I don't see them saying that about this match. They were using that as an example to illustrate that this distinction, between intellectualized high level play on the one hand, in a human touch on the other, is not something that shows up in the context of the NBA. They were not suggesting this was a description of the chess match between Gukesh and Liren.
        benatkin 2y ago
        I was suggesting that this year's chess championship was relatively boring, and that’s OK. However there are multiple dimensions between boring and exciting and in some ways this match was very far from relatively boring. And I wouldn’t say that it is boring without the relatively qualifier, no way. It was relatively boring on the level of the momentum shifting back and forth. That is, if you sampled the game every hour, you would find more excitement in the median on some other chess championships. That doesn't make it less impressive or the outcome less inspiring, or the story of the players. Momentum shifting a lot makes for an exciting championship. The 2018 championships between Carlsen & Caruana were much more exciting IMO, despite having a more predictable outcome also IMO. Now, really none of these championships are boring, unless you start comparing them and introduce the term relatively boring. All the players are playing with spirit, or else they wouldn't be playing at this level. Any perceived methodicalness doesn't make some player too much like an AI. Of course, not everyone is going to agree with me, and I accept that. I also think that it’s totally fine that Magnus Carlsen stopped participating, but another commenter thinks it’s a travesty. I agree to disagree.
- justin66 2y ago
  > That isn't how most appreciate sports. People are hoping for the contenders to be at the top of their game towards the end of the championships. I'm not sure how "hope" plays into it but few of the sports I follow allow for contenders to be at the top of their game towards the end of the championship. People are tired or playing injured, and it never occurred to me to believe that this made their performances less amazing.
  - benatkin 2y ago
    Good point. Still there is something along those lines in a really good matchup. The teamwork often thrives when the individuals are tired/injured.
  - dmonitor 2y ago
    there's definitely the odd game where a player suffers an injury in practice or early in the game, and a potentially close matchup becomes a disappointing wash as a result.
  - glenstein 2y ago
    You must not follow the NBA or MLB then. One of the major narratives of the most recent NBA postseason was how unfortunate it was that the Eastern Conference was so plagued with injuries that it limited the quality of competition, and it frequently has been a major narrative. Off the top of my head the recent Milwaukee Bucks championship was noted as happening in a context where their strongest competitor, the Brooklyn Nets, were catastrophically compromised by injuries. The Cleveland Cavaliers were almost laughably compromised by the loss of Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love against the Golden State Warriors in 2015 due to injuries. And then in 2019 it was the Golden State Warriors turn to suffer terrible injuries as they lost in the finals to an improbable underdog in the Toronto Raptors, which spilled over into a lost season for Golden State the following year which created an opening for the Lakers to win it all in the covid shortened 2020 season. Meanwhile in baseball injuries are so pervasive it's almost a question of which team doesn't suffer injuries. So I think it's a broadly accurate characterization of sports fandom at least in North America, and it's bizarre to venture into a conversation like this to talk broadly about sports fandom excluding such major examples that speak to this point.
- mcmoor 2y ago
  I've seen people leaving a game when it's locked in a shitty meta. An unsatisfying world championship is one of the indication for that

by hilux 2y ago

benatkin 2y ago

That isn't how most appreciate sports. People are hoping for the contenders to be at the top of their game towards the end of the championships. Nobody says "Hey, at least this has a human touch! I'm sick of basketball video games." if the NBA finals are relatively boring one year. I think maybe "that was a absolutely horrible finish" got interpreted as saying that the win wasn't well earned. That's not how I saw it at all.

hilux 2y ago
> Nobody says "Hey, at least this has a human touch! I'm sick of basketball video games." if the NBA finals are relatively boring one year. Complete strawman. You are one of very few people who think this match was "relatively boring."
- glenstein 2y ago
  I'm not seeing the strawman. You did say: >In reality, chess is a fighting contest between two flesh-and-blood humans And they weren't suggesting that the match was boring so far as I can tell, but more generally, they were responding to your idea that high level play is intellectualized in a way that loses the human touch.
  - hilux 2y ago
    By "strawman" I'm referring to use of "relatively boring" in the NBA parallel, as if that's a generally accepted description of this match.
    - glenstein 2y ago
      Again I don't see them saying that about this match. They were using that as an example to illustrate that this distinction, between intellectualized high level play on the one hand, in a human touch on the other, is not something that shows up in the context of the NBA. They were not suggesting this was a description of the chess match between Gukesh and Liren.
      - benatkin 2y ago
        I was suggesting that this year's chess championship was relatively boring, and that’s OK. However there are multiple dimensions between boring and exciting and in some ways this match was very far from relatively boring. And I wouldn’t say that it is boring without the relatively qualifier, no way. It was relatively boring on the level of the momentum shifting back and forth. That is, if you sampled the game every hour, you would find more excitement in the median on some other chess championships. That doesn't make it less impressive or the outcome less inspiring, or the story of the players. Momentum shifting a lot makes for an exciting championship. The 2018 championships between Carlsen & Caruana were much more exciting IMO, despite having a more predictable outcome also IMO. Now, really none of these championships are boring, unless you start comparing them and introduce the term relatively boring. All the players are playing with spirit, or else they wouldn't be playing at this level. Any perceived methodicalness doesn't make some player too much like an AI. Of course, not everyone is going to agree with me, and I accept that. I also think that it’s totally fine that Magnus Carlsen stopped participating, but another commenter thinks it’s a travesty. I agree to disagree.
justin66 2y ago
> That isn't how most appreciate sports. People are hoping for the contenders to be at the top of their game towards the end of the championships. I'm not sure how "hope" plays into it but few of the sports I follow allow for contenders to be at the top of their game towards the end of the championship. People are tired or playing injured, and it never occurred to me to believe that this made their performances less amazing.
- benatkin 2y ago
  Good point. Still there is something along those lines in a really good matchup. The teamwork often thrives when the individuals are tired/injured.
- dmonitor 2y ago
  there's definitely the odd game where a player suffers an injury in practice or early in the game, and a potentially close matchup becomes a disappointing wash as a result.
- glenstein 2y ago
  You must not follow the NBA or MLB then. One of the major narratives of the most recent NBA postseason was how unfortunate it was that the Eastern Conference was so plagued with injuries that it limited the quality of competition, and it frequently has been a major narrative. Off the top of my head the recent Milwaukee Bucks championship was noted as happening in a context where their strongest competitor, the Brooklyn Nets, were catastrophically compromised by injuries. The Cleveland Cavaliers were almost laughably compromised by the loss of Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love against the Golden State Warriors in 2015 due to injuries. And then in 2019 it was the Golden State Warriors turn to suffer terrible injuries as they lost in the finals to an improbable underdog in the Toronto Raptors, which spilled over into a lost season for Golden State the following year which created an opening for the Lakers to win it all in the covid shortened 2020 season. Meanwhile in baseball injuries are so pervasive it's almost a question of which team doesn't suffer injuries. So I think it's a broadly accurate characterization of sports fandom at least in North America, and it's bizarre to venture into a conversation like this to talk broadly about sports fandom excluding such major examples that speak to this point.
mcmoor 2y ago
I've seen people leaving a game when it's locked in a shitty meta. An unsatisfying world championship is one of the indication for that