4 ms·

It's 100% possible to become a master starting as an adult, but it requires a certain sort of person - you're looking at thousands upon thousands of hours of di

It's 100% possible to become a master starting as an adult, but it requires a certain sort of person - you're looking at thousands upon thousands of hours of difficult work paired alongside endless frustrations, obstacles, seriously low emotional lows the game can cause (think about how Ding feels right now, even if it wasn't a game for the title), and more. The idea of becoming a master, especially as an adult, is far more appealing than the reality of it for most people.

jeremyjh 2y ago
I've only heard of one person ever doing it, and that was in the 80s when the average age was older anyway. I think you've got to reach 1800 by your mid or maybe late teens to have a chance really.
School-Cotton 2y ago
> It's 100% possible to become a master starting as an adult Do you have any examples of someone who has done it?
- somenameforme 2y ago
  We might bicker on the meaning of "starting", but Mikhail Chigorin is definitely the most famous example. He was taught the moves at age 16 by a school teacher but in no way pursued the game until well into his twenties. He would then go on to compete at the highest level, including for the world championship. While he's the most famous example, many famous older masters also started quite late. And I think one big difference was culture. There's a really great film about chess from 1925 (!!) here [1]. The tournament footage there is real btw - it was the Moscow tournament of 1925, and it even has a cameo by Capablanca! The image of chess, and chess players, was quite different in the past. It was very much an adult's game. Now a days it has quite a different stereotype, and I think this impacts people's decisions on whether or not to seriously pursue it, with consequent impact on overall outcomes. Because in chess one of the biggest difficulties is when you hit your first serious plateau, which happens to everybody - it even happened to Magnus where his rating only declined for more than a year. If you lose confidence or start working poorly, that plateau will be where your improvement ends. Self belief and confidence is extremely important to keep improving. [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TN6m711ddZk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TN6m711ddZk
  - School-Cotton 2y ago
    Your examples are all people from 100 years ago when the game was completely different. Not a ringing endorsement of the claim that it's 100% possible (present tense). If Chigorin were magically transported to the present day he would not be a professional level player.
    - somenameforme 2y ago
      I don't know what you mean by "professional level" which is quite the shift from titled player, as you originally proposed. Kramnik, for instance, has estimated Steinitz (in modern times) would be around 2400 and Lasker around 2700. [1] Chigorin was +24−27=8 against Steinitz, and +1 -8 =4 against Lasker. He would definitely be a master. There are plenty of examples in modern times as well, but the problem we face is you're only going to run into people who publicize themselves unless you just dig through each master level player in the USCF, FIDE or whatever database. For instance I know Rolf Wetzell wrote a book about his journey from class player to becoming a master at the age of 50! Then there was Michael de la Maza who wrote a book about going from 1100 or something to 2000 as an adult, but retired at that point because he didn't want to put in the work to go further. I'm sure if you dig through the databases, you can find far more striking examples than these two - again those two I only know because they both wrote books, and of all people who achieve significant success as adults and write, only a tiny percent will publish books about it! And in modern times another group you might run into is people like me. I started as an adult, have only played one rated tournament otb, but am around 2500 blitz online and would certainly hit master if I actually bothered to play more rated events, but have never really gotten around to it for a mixture of cost (living outside of major chess events means $$$ for travel + housing + tourney costs) and time, even moreso now a days with children! [1] - https://www.chess.com/blog/Spektrowski/vladimir-kramnik-from-steinitz-to-kasparov https://www.chess.com/blog/Spektrowski/vladimir-kramnik-from...
  - sourcepluck 2y ago
    Your couple of comments on this thread are insightful, I will be watching that documentary! Cheers! What have you focused on in your chess learning to get to where you've gotten? I presume - everything?
sourcepluck 2y ago
What you're saying is made up. Can you provide a single example of someone who started chess in their 20s who became a grandmaster? Starting in 20s and getting to 2000 FIDE does happen, with an awful lot of work and dedication. GM, I have never found a single example of. By all means, prove me wrong.
sireat 2y ago
You will have to qualify this statement heavily. We do not have any examples of a grandmaster who learned rules past age 20. One of the 19th century greats presumably learned at 17, it was Blackburne - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Henry_Blackburne https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Henry_Blackburne - he was GM strength. There are a few late bloomer GMs today but what is common with them is that they were already decent just below expert players before 20. You need 3 things to become a masters and up level player. 1. Grit - conscious mastery everyone agrees on that 2. Some natural talent - certainly to become super GM 3. Start early enough - 6,7 is norm, 10 probably okay, 15 is already almost late. There is something special going on in the brains of young teenagers learning certain skills - violin, chess, some others. As Fischer said - he "just became good" in one year from around 13 to 14. Of course he was already pretty good at 13 but the magic happens around that time. Basically, you train hard, maybe you take a little bit of time off and then you gain this amazing "unconscious mastery". This happens around ages 11-16 or so, depending how early you start. Every good chess player has this "unconscious mastery" - that is they can play pretty well (2200+) even if drunk, dead tired, 1-min blitz, playing simul, etc etc - in other words without "thinking". For some reason adult starters are unable to develop this unconscious mastery. Apparently there are certain limits to neuroplasticity in adults. Of course I'd love to be proven wrong. Disclaimer: I am an aging Fide Master who needed 1 point in 2 games(ie 2 draws) to become IM some years ago. I went out swinging but failed. I also know many people who took up chess late in life and did not break 1800. Also I know many people who are full time trainers and live chess full time, but they themselves can not go above 2200. If pure grit was sufficient at later stages in life, we'd see a lot more progress, but we do not.
- somenameforme 2y ago
  I think you are leaving out #4. You need to have basically unbreakable confidence. Dealing with that horrible plateau that we all go through often breaks adult players. This [1] is Magnus' rating chart. It looks like an unstoppable line to the top until you zoom in and actually look. In April 2004 Magnus was 2552. 15 months and 162 classical games later he was 2528. When a 'normal' adult plays 162 classical games, which is often only done over a period of many years, and only loses rating points, they assume they've hit their peak and their spirit breaks, or they try to 'fix' their training routine and just end up completely breaking it. This is one reason it's so much easier for children to improve - they [usually] don't really think about such things in the same way and just keep grinding away. Chess improvement is brutal. You don't put in 'x' effort and get some proportional reward back. Chess improvement is very stair-step, you wake up one day and you're suddenly much stronger than you were the day before. But until you hit that next stair-step, you see little to nothing. In my own case I only learned how the pieces move as an adult, at least in so much as 18 counts as an adult, and feel I've gained at least a moderate level of unconscious mastery - around 2600 bullet and 2500 blitz, with the overwhelming majority of that improvement coming well after 30, and I'm still improving! [1] - https://ratings.fide.com/profile/1503014/chart https://ratings.fide.com/profile/1503014/chart

jeremyjh 2y ago

I've only heard of one person ever doing it, and that was in the 80s when the average age was older anyway. I think you've got to reach 1800 by your mid or maybe late teens to have a chance really.

School-Cotton 2y ago

> It's 100% possible to become a master starting as an adult Do you have any examples of someone who has done it?

somenameforme 2y ago
We might bicker on the meaning of "starting", but Mikhail Chigorin is definitely the most famous example. He was taught the moves at age 16 by a school teacher but in no way pursued the game until well into his twenties. He would then go on to compete at the highest level, including for the world championship. While he's the most famous example, many famous older masters also started quite late. And I think one big difference was culture. There's a really great film about chess from 1925 (!!) here [1]. The tournament footage there is real btw - it was the Moscow tournament of 1925, and it even has a cameo by Capablanca! The image of chess, and chess players, was quite different in the past. It was very much an adult's game. Now a days it has quite a different stereotype, and I think this impacts people's decisions on whether or not to seriously pursue it, with consequent impact on overall outcomes. Because in chess one of the biggest difficulties is when you hit your first serious plateau, which happens to everybody - it even happened to Magnus where his rating only declined for more than a year. If you lose confidence or start working poorly, that plateau will be where your improvement ends. Self belief and confidence is extremely important to keep improving. [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TN6m711ddZk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TN6m711ddZk
- School-Cotton 2y ago
  Your examples are all people from 100 years ago when the game was completely different. Not a ringing endorsement of the claim that it's 100% possible (present tense). If Chigorin were magically transported to the present day he would not be a professional level player.
  - somenameforme 2y ago
    I don't know what you mean by "professional level" which is quite the shift from titled player, as you originally proposed. Kramnik, for instance, has estimated Steinitz (in modern times) would be around 2400 and Lasker around 2700. [1] Chigorin was +24−27=8 against Steinitz, and +1 -8 =4 against Lasker. He would definitely be a master. There are plenty of examples in modern times as well, but the problem we face is you're only going to run into people who publicize themselves unless you just dig through each master level player in the USCF, FIDE or whatever database. For instance I know Rolf Wetzell wrote a book about his journey from class player to becoming a master at the age of 50! Then there was Michael de la Maza who wrote a book about going from 1100 or something to 2000 as an adult, but retired at that point because he didn't want to put in the work to go further. I'm sure if you dig through the databases, you can find far more striking examples than these two - again those two I only know because they both wrote books, and of all people who achieve significant success as adults and write, only a tiny percent will publish books about it! And in modern times another group you might run into is people like me. I started as an adult, have only played one rated tournament otb, but am around 2500 blitz online and would certainly hit master if I actually bothered to play more rated events, but have never really gotten around to it for a mixture of cost (living outside of major chess events means $$$ for travel + housing + tourney costs) and time, even moreso now a days with children! [1] - https://www.chess.com/blog/Spektrowski/vladimir-kramnik-from-steinitz-to-kasparov https://www.chess.com/blog/Spektrowski/vladimir-kramnik-from...
- sourcepluck 2y ago
  Your couple of comments on this thread are insightful, I will be watching that documentary! Cheers! What have you focused on in your chess learning to get to where you've gotten? I presume - everything?

sourcepluck 2y ago

What you're saying is made up. Can you provide a single example of someone who started chess in their 20s who became a grandmaster? Starting in 20s and getting to 2000 FIDE does happen, with an awful lot of work and dedication. GM, I have never found a single example of. By all means, prove me wrong.

sireat 2y ago

You will have to qualify this statement heavily. We do not have any examples of a grandmaster who learned rules past age 20. One of the 19th century greats presumably learned at 17, it was Blackburne - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Henry_Blackburne https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Henry_Blackburne - he was GM strength. There are a few late bloomer GMs today but what is common with them is that they were already decent just below expert players before 20. You need 3 things to become a masters and up level player. 1. Grit - conscious mastery everyone agrees on that 2. Some natural talent - certainly to become super GM 3. Start early enough - 6,7 is norm, 10 probably okay, 15 is already almost late. There is something special going on in the brains of young teenagers learning certain skills - violin, chess, some others. As Fischer said - he "just became good" in one year from around 13 to 14. Of course he was already pretty good at 13 but the magic happens around that time. Basically, you train hard, maybe you take a little bit of time off and then you gain this amazing "unconscious mastery". This happens around ages 11-16 or so, depending how early you start. Every good chess player has this "unconscious mastery" - that is they can play pretty well (2200+) even if drunk, dead tired, 1-min blitz, playing simul, etc etc - in other words without "thinking". For some reason adult starters are unable to develop this unconscious mastery. Apparently there are certain limits to neuroplasticity in adults. Of course I'd love to be proven wrong. Disclaimer: I am an aging Fide Master who needed 1 point in 2 games(ie 2 draws) to become IM some years ago. I went out swinging but failed. I also know many people who took up chess late in life and did not break 1800. Also I know many people who are full time trainers and live chess full time, but they themselves can not go above 2200. If pure grit was sufficient at later stages in life, we'd see a lot more progress, but we do not.

somenameforme 2y ago
I think you are leaving out #4. You need to have basically unbreakable confidence. Dealing with that horrible plateau that we all go through often breaks adult players. This [1] is Magnus' rating chart. It looks like an unstoppable line to the top until you zoom in and actually look. In April 2004 Magnus was 2552. 15 months and 162 classical games later he was 2528. When a 'normal' adult plays 162 classical games, which is often only done over a period of many years, and only loses rating points, they assume they've hit their peak and their spirit breaks, or they try to 'fix' their training routine and just end up completely breaking it. This is one reason it's so much easier for children to improve - they [usually] don't really think about such things in the same way and just keep grinding away. Chess improvement is brutal. You don't put in 'x' effort and get some proportional reward back. Chess improvement is very stair-step, you wake up one day and you're suddenly much stronger than you were the day before. But until you hit that next stair-step, you see little to nothing. In my own case I only learned how the pieces move as an adult, at least in so much as 18 counts as an adult, and feel I've gained at least a moderate level of unconscious mastery - around 2600 bullet and 2500 blitz, with the overwhelming majority of that improvement coming well after 30, and I'm still improving! [1] - https://ratings.fide.com/profile/1503014/chart https://ratings.fide.com/profile/1503014/chart