5 ms·

I wonder if this is going to be the distraction to suggested changes in 900MHz. My other guess is the major uses of this will turn out to be UWB related: https

I wonder if this is going to be the distraction to suggested changes in 900MHz. My other guess is the major uses of this will turn out to be UWB related: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-wideband https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-wideband Which in practice is largely about short range location finding.

hammock 2y ago
What are the suggested changes?
- hammock 2y ago
  I found this: A current proposal regarding the 900MHz band, primarily put forward by NextNav, suggests a significant reorganization of the spectrum to allocate a portion for their terrestrial 3D positioning network, potentially creating dedicated uplink and downlink bands within the lower 900MHz range, which could impact existing users like toll systems and RFID devices due to potential interference concerns; however, this proposal faces strong opposition from various industries currently utilizing the band
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - throwway120385 2y ago
    I work with some of that RFID/Tolling equipment and I can tell you this would be very bad news for a lot of industries.
    - RF_Savage 2y ago
      And 100% incompatible with all existing installations. I also doubt Amazon will be happy about their Sidewalk mesh network getting degraded.
- LeifCarrotson 2y ago
  Selling the amateur/LoRaWAN spectrum to a private company for more cellular bandwidth. And, ostensibly, a terrestrial GPS backup that operates concurrently with those cellular functions, but that's a red herring in my opinion, it's basically a land-grab of public unlicensed frequencies to lease out to Verizon/ATT/Tmobile.
greesil 2y ago
But will UWB be allowed to have a higher EIRP in this band?
ChuckMcM 2y ago
I too have been watching the 900 MHz stuff as I have a number of unlicensed long range devices (1W ERP) that work in that range. The paranoid folks believe the FCC is trying to move all of the unlicensed stuff into the GHz+ range to limit long range communications. I don't subscribe to that opinion, I expect however that there is pressure from commercial interests on UHF and VHF frequencies. I also believe you are correct in that the bulk of the use of the 6 GHz band will be UWB related and folks will exploit the multi-GSPS ADCs and DACs that are on Xilinx's RFSOC and Analog Devices is shipping. I read a pitch for a UWB "HD video extender" which was basically connecting a 4K display over UWB to a source rather than via a cable. That idea became a lot more viable with the current FCC order.
- simpaticoder 2y ago
  >The paranoid folks believe the FCC is trying to move all of the unlicensed stuff into the GHz+ range to limit long range communication Whether or not people are paranoid, if the FCC moves all unlicenced frequencies into the GHz range, they limit the public's ability to communicate over long ranges with unlicensed equipment.
  - generalizations 2y ago
    Unless the public devises ways to use sub-ghz frequencies without getting caught.
    - freedomben 2y ago
      It's pretty damn tough to hide RF, and if it's illegal then it will ask require home brewed circuitry which pretty effectively eliminates the capability from the public
      - gorlilla 2y ago
        It's not especially hard to modulate a signal on frequencies you shouldn't be. You don't even need to be doing it intentionally thanks to the lovely phenomenon of harmonics amongst other factors. Software defined transceivers exist. Adjustable antennas exist. Poorly shielded electronics that can cause further noise propagation to broadcast out of the transmit side also exist. You can also change the intended broadcast frequency of some cheap handheld radios using a USB cable and an off-the-shelf antenna. There is very little in the way of the general public to do something illegal, wittingly or otherwise, in RF. I'd argue that 'capability' is a naive limiter here as they'd be more likely to do this by accident than on purpose (or ignorance vs malice). There are tons of illegal/unpermitted/unlicensed broadcasts happening all of the time. They only become an issue when regulators need to enforce rules, usually due to noticed interference. Bad bonding/grounding is probably the most common cause. RF exists other places too. RF that was meant to be contained in a wire can use these same allocated OTA frequencies because they were never meant to escape that closed system... But do, mostly through poor bonding/grounding. As you can probably see by now, there is little actually stopping anyone from broadcasting on any particular frequency. Regulators will catch them if they're causing destructive interference, eventually. But you could potentially use 'illegal' RF for years and never be noticed. Your transmit power/range and your local environment (who else is using the spectrum locally) will dictate that for you more than any allocation rules alone. The amateur radio scene is a special thing. They share knowledge, experience and more than anything, a culture of informed operation of RF. I'd encourage anyone interested in operating any RF systems to acquire or at least study enough to acquire an amateur Technician license (US).
autoexec 2y ago
I'm sure looking forward to all the new and exciting ways we'll be surveilled and our private lives intruded on.
ryukoposting 2y ago
You're referring to that NextNav BS? Utterly insane. I am furtunate enough to have an employer who actually cares, so we wrote a comment together about it. It's an affront to reason. Yeah, let's nuke a massive chunk of amateur spectrum, AND LoraWAN AND Z-wave AND EZPass so that domestic orgs can have a pre-enshittified PNT implementation. Never mind that demand for PNT is driven primarily by orgs operating on foreign soil, where nobody gives a damn what the FCC thinks.
- wbl 2y ago
  Though they have rather more final ways of silencing unauthorized transmitters.
klabb3 2y ago
> short range location finding From what i heard from knowledgeable people, not just that but also unspoofable range - when verifiable proximity/direction is desirable eg for security applications. Say you want a car that opens only when your phone is within ~2m range, and not from 1km away with some MITM/amplification device. Not sure this is used already but it was one of the benefits mentioned to me.
- im3w1l 2y ago
  Speed of light. If you require a really fast response it's physically impossible to amplify from far away.

hammock 2y ago

What are the suggested changes?

hammock 2y ago
I found this: A current proposal regarding the 900MHz band, primarily put forward by NextNav, suggests a significant reorganization of the spectrum to allocate a portion for their terrestrial 3D positioning network, potentially creating dedicated uplink and downlink bands within the lower 900MHz range, which could impact existing users like toll systems and RFID devices due to potential interference concerns; however, this proposal faces strong opposition from various industries currently utilizing the band
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- throwway120385 2y ago
  I work with some of that RFID/Tolling equipment and I can tell you this would be very bad news for a lot of industries.
  - RF_Savage 2y ago
    And 100% incompatible with all existing installations. I also doubt Amazon will be happy about their Sidewalk mesh network getting degraded.
LeifCarrotson 2y ago
Selling the amateur/LoRaWAN spectrum to a private company for more cellular bandwidth. And, ostensibly, a terrestrial GPS backup that operates concurrently with those cellular functions, but that's a red herring in my opinion, it's basically a land-grab of public unlicensed frequencies to lease out to Verizon/ATT/Tmobile.

greesil 2y ago

But will UWB be allowed to have a higher EIRP in this band?

ChuckMcM 2y ago

I too have been watching the 900 MHz stuff as I have a number of unlicensed long range devices (1W ERP) that work in that range. The paranoid folks believe the FCC is trying to move all of the unlicensed stuff into the GHz+ range to limit long range communications. I don't subscribe to that opinion, I expect however that there is pressure from commercial interests on UHF and VHF frequencies. I also believe you are correct in that the bulk of the use of the 6 GHz band will be UWB related and folks will exploit the multi-GSPS ADCs and DACs that are on Xilinx's RFSOC and Analog Devices is shipping. I read a pitch for a UWB "HD video extender" which was basically connecting a 4K display over UWB to a source rather than via a cable. That idea became a lot more viable with the current FCC order.

simpaticoder 2y ago
>The paranoid folks believe the FCC is trying to move all of the unlicensed stuff into the GHz+ range to limit long range communication Whether or not people are paranoid, if the FCC moves all unlicenced frequencies into the GHz range, they limit the public's ability to communicate over long ranges with unlicensed equipment.
- generalizations 2y ago
  Unless the public devises ways to use sub-ghz frequencies without getting caught.
  - freedomben 2y ago
    It's pretty damn tough to hide RF, and if it's illegal then it will ask require home brewed circuitry which pretty effectively eliminates the capability from the public
    - gorlilla 2y ago
      It's not especially hard to modulate a signal on frequencies you shouldn't be. You don't even need to be doing it intentionally thanks to the lovely phenomenon of harmonics amongst other factors. Software defined transceivers exist. Adjustable antennas exist. Poorly shielded electronics that can cause further noise propagation to broadcast out of the transmit side also exist. You can also change the intended broadcast frequency of some cheap handheld radios using a USB cable and an off-the-shelf antenna. There is very little in the way of the general public to do something illegal, wittingly or otherwise, in RF. I'd argue that 'capability' is a naive limiter here as they'd be more likely to do this by accident than on purpose (or ignorance vs malice). There are tons of illegal/unpermitted/unlicensed broadcasts happening all of the time. They only become an issue when regulators need to enforce rules, usually due to noticed interference. Bad bonding/grounding is probably the most common cause. RF exists other places too. RF that was meant to be contained in a wire can use these same allocated OTA frequencies because they were never meant to escape that closed system... But do, mostly through poor bonding/grounding. As you can probably see by now, there is little actually stopping anyone from broadcasting on any particular frequency. Regulators will catch them if they're causing destructive interference, eventually. But you could potentially use 'illegal' RF for years and never be noticed. Your transmit power/range and your local environment (who else is using the spectrum locally) will dictate that for you more than any allocation rules alone. The amateur radio scene is a special thing. They share knowledge, experience and more than anything, a culture of informed operation of RF. I'd encourage anyone interested in operating any RF systems to acquire or at least study enough to acquire an amateur Technician license (US).

autoexec 2y ago

I'm sure looking forward to all the new and exciting ways we'll be surveilled and our private lives intruded on.

ryukoposting 2y ago

You're referring to that NextNav BS? Utterly insane. I am furtunate enough to have an employer who actually cares, so we wrote a comment together about it. It's an affront to reason. Yeah, let's nuke a massive chunk of amateur spectrum, AND LoraWAN AND Z-wave AND EZPass so that domestic orgs can have a pre-enshittified PNT implementation. Never mind that demand for PNT is driven primarily by orgs operating on foreign soil, where nobody gives a damn what the FCC thinks.

wbl 2y ago
Though they have rather more final ways of silencing unauthorized transmitters.

klabb3 2y ago

> short range location finding From what i heard from knowledgeable people, not just that but also unspoofable range - when verifiable proximity/direction is desirable eg for security applications. Say you want a car that opens only when your phone is within ~2m range, and not from 1km away with some MITM/amplification device. Not sure this is used already but it was one of the benefits mentioned to me.

im3w1l 2y ago
Speed of light. If you require a really fast response it's physically impossible to amplify from far away.