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> 2014, when Russia invaded. Did anything else happen in Ukraine before that happened? Maybe somebody overthrew the government and installed a puppet who event

> 2014, when Russia invaded. Did anything else happen in Ukraine before that happened? Maybe somebody overthrew the government and installed a puppet who eventually left office with a 6% approval rating? Maybe a bunch of US congressmen literally flew out to show their support?

aguaviva 2y ago
Maybe somebody overthrew the government and installed a puppet And when you're completely cornered on one line of disinformation, not just maybe but sure enough -- somebody will chime in with another. The coup/puppet narrative in relation to these events is simply bogus. You can do your homework on it if you want, or not. I don't particularly care.
rat87 2y ago
What actually happened in Ukraine was that the president went back on his promise to try to work towards join the EU (possibly due to threats from Putin) and some young Ukranians organized a protest on social media because they saw the EU as the only hope for a bright Ukrainan future (if you want to know why just look at the economy and corruption levels in former communist EU countries compared to Ukraine) and the President as going back on his word and throwing it away. Instead of considering their points or even trying to ignore them he tried to suppress the protests with extreme violence and ridiculous anti protest laws people thought might lead to dictatorship like in neighboring Russia or Belarus. The Ukranian people didn't like this and the protests grew and grew and grew. The EU and US encouraged the political opposition to make a compromise with the President even if it was unsatisfactory. But then the police who has been fighting the protesters got cold feet that the president would throw them under the bus in the deal, so they disappeared and the President decided to do the same. Since he abandoned his country and his post the legislature had no choice but to remove him from office including many from his own party. A couple of US politicians voiced support for the people protesting for their rights against a corrupt and increasingly authorian leader, I see why they did it but how is that relevant to any of this? Also Poroshenko wasn't in any way installed or a puppet, he was elected by Ukranians in an election that was fair and free followed by another fair and free election which he lost in a landslide. That's democracy. Poroshenko may have not been the best leader but he was tons better then Yanukovych and it was pretty hard to run Ukraine even before Russia invaded.
- senderista 2y ago
  Yanukovych (along with several members of the Rada) fled for his life from Right Sector and other fascist goons. The coup came after Yanukovych had already agreed to early elections.
  - rat87 2y ago
    Yanukovych chose to abandon his country and his duty without warning. He had options. Did he fear for his life due to the violence he had started, maybe. But there was no coup. He abandoned his country (he didn't try going to a different part of the country where there were fewer protests) and the legislature removed him because of it. They couldn't wait for him to decide to come back whenever he felt comfortable.
    - senderista 2y ago
      Sounds like you're assuming that the Maidan sniper massacre was Yanukovych's doing. There is good reason to believe it was orchestrated by the far right because they didn't want a peaceful solution. Ivan Katchanovski is a Ukrainian-born Canadian political scientist who is definitely not a Russian sympathizer. He has studied the history of the Maidan uprising and argues convincingly (IMO) for this conclusion. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/266855828_The_Snipers'_Massacre_on_the_Maidan_in_Ukraine https://www.researchgate.net/publication/266855828_The_Snipe... He also has a very interesting podcast with Robert Wright where he discusses this, among other issues related to the Ukraine war: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Rvx_M3_Yi0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Rvx_M3_Yi0 I also recommend following his twitter account if you're interested in a fairly neutral perspective on the Ukraine war: https://x.com/I_Katchanovski https://x.com/I_Katchanovski
ponector 2y ago
You should consume less of Russia Today's products.
- ragyheb 2y ago
  Not possible, it is banned in some parts of the EU. Publicly funded German TV is available, however. This is from the German equivalent of the BBC, titled "Coup in Kiev: What role did the fascists play?": https://www.ndr.de/fernsehen/sendungen/panorama/archiv/2014/Putsch-in-Kiew-Welche-Rolle-spielen-die-Faschisten,ukraine357.html https://www.ndr.de/fernsehen/sendungen/panorama/archiv/2014/... It uses the word "coup", but then says that the majority of the protesters demonstrated for a free Ukraine and were against the corruption of Yanukovich. The rest of the article is about the Swoboda party, which is ultranationalist and had good contacts to the German NPD. The NPD is a fringe party without any substantial numbers of voters that is classified as ultra right wing. It then mentions a Neonazi (their words) called Jarosch and his party "Right Sector". It goes on to say that the "Right Sector" was instrumental in ousting the old regime physically on the barricades. It says that the members then established new security forces that replaced the police. What does the BBC say? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 The same U.S. that complains about election interference in Romania is picking candidates in Ukraine after the revolution.
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    The NPD is a fringe party without any substantial numbers of voters As is Svoboda, these days.
    - rgaht 2y ago
      It is, and that talking point is listed on united24media.com. But this subthread, where someone was accused of watching RT, was about the events leading up to the Maidan uprising.
      - aguaviva 2y ago
        Actually, to the extent that it was about Ukraine, the entry point was that day's version of the "because NATO" thread. When that hit a wall (as it always does), someone flipped it over the "Nazi puppet regime" narrative.

aguaviva 2y ago

Maybe somebody overthrew the government and installed a puppet And when you're completely cornered on one line of disinformation, not just maybe but sure enough -- somebody will chime in with another. The coup/puppet narrative in relation to these events is simply bogus. You can do your homework on it if you want, or not. I don't particularly care.

rat87 2y ago

What actually happened in Ukraine was that the president went back on his promise to try to work towards join the EU (possibly due to threats from Putin) and some young Ukranians organized a protest on social media because they saw the EU as the only hope for a bright Ukrainan future (if you want to know why just look at the economy and corruption levels in former communist EU countries compared to Ukraine) and the President as going back on his word and throwing it away. Instead of considering their points or even trying to ignore them he tried to suppress the protests with extreme violence and ridiculous anti protest laws people thought might lead to dictatorship like in neighboring Russia or Belarus. The Ukranian people didn't like this and the protests grew and grew and grew. The EU and US encouraged the political opposition to make a compromise with the President even if it was unsatisfactory. But then the police who has been fighting the protesters got cold feet that the president would throw them under the bus in the deal, so they disappeared and the President decided to do the same. Since he abandoned his country and his post the legislature had no choice but to remove him from office including many from his own party. A couple of US politicians voiced support for the people protesting for their rights against a corrupt and increasingly authorian leader, I see why they did it but how is that relevant to any of this? Also Poroshenko wasn't in any way installed or a puppet, he was elected by Ukranians in an election that was fair and free followed by another fair and free election which he lost in a landslide. That's democracy. Poroshenko may have not been the best leader but he was tons better then Yanukovych and it was pretty hard to run Ukraine even before Russia invaded.

senderista 2y ago
Yanukovych (along with several members of the Rada) fled for his life from Right Sector and other fascist goons. The coup came after Yanukovych had already agreed to early elections.
- rat87 2y ago
  Yanukovych chose to abandon his country and his duty without warning. He had options. Did he fear for his life due to the violence he had started, maybe. But there was no coup. He abandoned his country (he didn't try going to a different part of the country where there were fewer protests) and the legislature removed him because of it. They couldn't wait for him to decide to come back whenever he felt comfortable.
  - senderista 2y ago
    Sounds like you're assuming that the Maidan sniper massacre was Yanukovych's doing. There is good reason to believe it was orchestrated by the far right because they didn't want a peaceful solution. Ivan Katchanovski is a Ukrainian-born Canadian political scientist who is definitely not a Russian sympathizer. He has studied the history of the Maidan uprising and argues convincingly (IMO) for this conclusion. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/266855828_The_Snipers'_Massacre_on_the_Maidan_in_Ukraine https://www.researchgate.net/publication/266855828_The_Snipe... He also has a very interesting podcast with Robert Wright where he discusses this, among other issues related to the Ukraine war: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Rvx_M3_Yi0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Rvx_M3_Yi0 I also recommend following his twitter account if you're interested in a fairly neutral perspective on the Ukraine war: https://x.com/I_Katchanovski https://x.com/I_Katchanovski

ponector 2y ago

You should consume less of Russia Today's products.

ragyheb 2y ago
Not possible, it is banned in some parts of the EU. Publicly funded German TV is available, however. This is from the German equivalent of the BBC, titled "Coup in Kiev: What role did the fascists play?": https://www.ndr.de/fernsehen/sendungen/panorama/archiv/2014/Putsch-in-Kiew-Welche-Rolle-spielen-die-Faschisten,ukraine357.html https://www.ndr.de/fernsehen/sendungen/panorama/archiv/2014/... It uses the word "coup", but then says that the majority of the protesters demonstrated for a free Ukraine and were against the corruption of Yanukovich. The rest of the article is about the Swoboda party, which is ultranationalist and had good contacts to the German NPD. The NPD is a fringe party without any substantial numbers of voters that is classified as ultra right wing. It then mentions a Neonazi (their words) called Jarosch and his party "Right Sector". It goes on to say that the "Right Sector" was instrumental in ousting the old regime physically on the barricades. It says that the members then established new security forces that replaced the police. What does the BBC say? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 The same U.S. that complains about election interference in Romania is picking candidates in Ukraine after the revolution.
- aguaviva 2y ago
  The NPD is a fringe party without any substantial numbers of voters As is Svoboda, these days.
  - rgaht 2y ago
    It is, and that talking point is listed on united24media.com. But this subthread, where someone was accused of watching RT, was about the events leading up to the Maidan uprising.
    - aguaviva 2y ago
      Actually, to the extent that it was about Ukraine, the entry point was that day's version of the "because NATO" thread. When that hit a wall (as it always does), someone flipped it over the "Nazi puppet regime" narrative.