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So when can we start a guild of Software Engineers?

jerf 2y ago
That won't solve this problem. The military and government will do what is necessary to make sure the Guild of Software Engineers is officially completely fine with military applications. This is something that only individuals can do. And there will always be individuals willing to write this code, and that's not anything that can be solved by any number of Guilds either. The military will pay anything it takes to make it worth working outside of the Guild's rules.
- AlotOfReading 2y ago
  Being able to say no with legal force is helpful even outside defense. I've discussed one of my previous roles unintentionally building an employee surveillance tool, and another codebase I contributed to is currently on the front page as a distant result of hurting people.
- glitchc 2y ago
  We can start with private enterprise, with ad tech, consumer data harvesting/surveillance and dark patterns targeting engagement and addiction. The military can be the last bastion to tackle once the guild has strength and can bargain to enforce guardrails. I'm looking at how SAG is so effective at navigating a multi-billion dollar entertainment industry filled with behemoths like Disney. If they can do it, we can too. At this point, the actors are looking smarter than software devs.
weberer 2y ago
Software engineers are free to join IEEE.
- cmrdporcupine 2y ago
  Groups like IEEE and the ACM don't do what professional associations / unions / "guilds" do... help regulate / moderate employer behaviour in a given industry. Of course those associations are always a mixed bag, often fostering some mediocrity or being themselves corrupt. But definitely feel like there's some aspect of that missing in our sector.
- glitchc 2y ago
  Those organizations don't have teeth, neither does the state-based PE except to regulate members. Where is the organization that regulates employers?
duxup 2y ago
I really don't want to get into the meta of what that guild "should" be doing / telling other folks who they should work for. My local teacher's union has some affinity groups and one group decided to invite a speaker who in the past has had some very strong words for people of a particular religion and point of view. Needless to say it is a mess of a problem. I'm not sure I'd work on a military project, but I also wouldn't be comfortable with a guild telling me that I or anyone else can't / shouldn't.
- glitchc 2y ago
  Engineering already has a professional association that tells its members what can and cannot be done. A guild will have the power to also provide limits on what an employer can or cannot do, set minimum/floor rates for standard services and generally improve the labour conditions for its employees. That's exactly what SAG and AFTRA achieve, and it's worth looking into how they work.
bee_rider 2y ago
There are already professional societies for other engineers (IEEE for example), but I think there are engineers that work for military applications. It is a complicated topic I think; on one hand lots of people don’t want to work in those types of applications. On the other, we have a decision-making process for how violence is applied. If we are going to start inserting more veto points in there (which I think is a good idea), I don’t know that “has some rare technical skill” would the first qualifying characteristic I’d look at, right?

jerf 2y ago

That won't solve this problem. The military and government will do what is necessary to make sure the Guild of Software Engineers is officially completely fine with military applications. This is something that only individuals can do. And there will always be individuals willing to write this code, and that's not anything that can be solved by any number of Guilds either. The military will pay anything it takes to make it worth working outside of the Guild's rules.

AlotOfReading 2y ago
Being able to say no with legal force is helpful even outside defense. I've discussed one of my previous roles unintentionally building an employee surveillance tool, and another codebase I contributed to is currently on the front page as a distant result of hurting people.
glitchc 2y ago
We can start with private enterprise, with ad tech, consumer data harvesting/surveillance and dark patterns targeting engagement and addiction. The military can be the last bastion to tackle once the guild has strength and can bargain to enforce guardrails. I'm looking at how SAG is so effective at navigating a multi-billion dollar entertainment industry filled with behemoths like Disney. If they can do it, we can too. At this point, the actors are looking smarter than software devs.

weberer 2y ago

Software engineers are free to join IEEE.

cmrdporcupine 2y ago
Groups like IEEE and the ACM don't do what professional associations / unions / "guilds" do... help regulate / moderate employer behaviour in a given industry. Of course those associations are always a mixed bag, often fostering some mediocrity or being themselves corrupt. But definitely feel like there's some aspect of that missing in our sector.
glitchc 2y ago
Those organizations don't have teeth, neither does the state-based PE except to regulate members. Where is the organization that regulates employers?

duxup 2y ago

I really don't want to get into the meta of what that guild "should" be doing / telling other folks who they should work for. My local teacher's union has some affinity groups and one group decided to invite a speaker who in the past has had some very strong words for people of a particular religion and point of view. Needless to say it is a mess of a problem. I'm not sure I'd work on a military project, but I also wouldn't be comfortable with a guild telling me that I or anyone else can't / shouldn't.

glitchc 2y ago
Engineering already has a professional association that tells its members what can and cannot be done. A guild will have the power to also provide limits on what an employer can or cannot do, set minimum/floor rates for standard services and generally improve the labour conditions for its employees. That's exactly what SAG and AFTRA achieve, and it's worth looking into how they work.

bee_rider 2y ago

There are already professional societies for other engineers (IEEE for example), but I think there are engineers that work for military applications. It is a complicated topic I think; on one hand lots of people don’t want to work in those types of applications. On the other, we have a decision-making process for how violence is applied. If we are going to start inserting more veto points in there (which I think is a good idea), I don’t know that “has some rare technical skill” would the first qualifying characteristic I’d look at, right?