7 ms·

It's crazy to think people still deny current US involvement in other countries, given all this past evidence. Just look what Chevron is doing today: UFC 2.0.

It's crazy to think people still deny current US involvement in other countries, given all this past evidence. Just look what Chevron is doing today: UFC 2.0. https://youtu.be/9OtIAZMqrZE?si=11uBrlWr-pSL4APj https://youtu.be/9OtIAZMqrZE?si=11uBrlWr-pSL4APj

smallerfish 2y ago
Who denies US involvement in other countries? That seems a little bit of a straw man.
- Cumpiler69 2y ago
  >Who denies US involvement in other countries? You haven't been on HN long enough if you never saw it.
  - InDubioProRubio 2y ago
    Because colonialism is used as a lazy cope out for all uncomfortable discussions. Shit in a mans yard in the past, and you are responsible for all future ills that befall him. And its such a lazy cope out- just proof the first sin of the past - and then its allover, no self-responsibility, not good things, no bad things, no history- just original sin was proven, im done here. And people are sick and tired of it- while the world is filled with counter- examples to that narrative just filling the news.
    - Cumpiler69 2y ago
      Are you saying western colonialism has no impact on the world of today? Not just colonialism from 200 years ago, but the colonialism happening today. You're moving the goalposts on the original sin, while I was discussing the issues of today or at least recent past (Iranian revolution was only in 1979, Invasion of Iraq was in 2003, Arab spring in 2011, Taliban rule form 2021). You can't just wave away decades or even centuries of oppression and intervention in other countries' affairs that changed them forever (that sill happen to this day BTW, and by the same powers), with "whatever mate, it was in the past", as if you broke my phone screen in junior school. No mate, it wasn't just in the past, it's still happening. Except colonialism today is less about large sailing wooden ships and conquistadors with muskets straight up stealing your shit from your town at gunpoint and shipping abroad along with slaves, but more alphabet agency black-ops and monetary/economic levers to topple your leader and replace him with a friendly puppet one who will willingly and legally sign off your country's resources and your peoples' labor to western corporations as salves, for way below market price. This isn't the original sin anymore, this is its modern version.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - InDubioProRubio 2y ago
        A vastly overrated impact, to almost non-existence by now. You can see the multi-polar world if you squint- and all that shit usually blamed at the west, turns out to be just murderous local land empires, blaming all the things they do to gain power on western influence or history, but actually doing the same thing they did before the west rolled up. We are just not that important. Never were actually, just lucky and luck is running out. Others now colonialize happy ever after in the original english image and if asked- tell you that they do it for "western interests" or customers. And its bullshit. And the audience walks out on that story, wherever its told. It has no explanation power any-more and if you tell a story without explanation power, it just gives credence to the assholes you pushed of the stage. Thus tooting that horn, is like glueing MAGA WAS RIGHT to every fence in town.
        Cumpiler69 2y ago
        >A vastly overrated impact, to almost non-existence by now. I'll have to leave you right there, since I can't reason someone through argumentation from a position they did not reason themselves into in the first place, so this will go nowhere.
        piva00 2y ago
        > A vastly overrated impact, to almost non-existence by now. Absurd take... Some examples: Brazil's democracy was put on hold during the whole period of growth post WW2, it has social impacts to this day both in wasteful investments done through 20+ years of dictatorship saddling the country with debt and disinvestment being paid to this day by current generations: lack of education, bad infrastructure, a fragile democracy since only 2 generations of voters have lived completely under it. The whole Middle East has sectarian violence caused by the borders drawn from colonial powers in control of regions up to the 1960s. The same is true for African civil wars ringing out to this day, nations (aka tribes) split into 2-3 countries to be more easily controlled by different colonial powers. To this day the USA meddles directly with governments south of it, the doctrine of strong-arming what the USA considers its backyard is still strong, American influence in South American politics is everywhere. > and all that shit usually blamed at the west, turns out to be just murderous local land empires, blaming all the things they do to gain power on western influence or history, but actually doing the same thing they did before the west rolled up As I mentioned, colonial powers drew borders to divide-and-conquer nations who are now fighting each other from all the bad blood caused by these divisions, do you actually really believe some 4-5 decades would be enough to erase all the infighting encouraged by colonial powers to keep the locals weak and scattered? I really can't believe someone thinks the issues of colonialism can't have echoes way past the end of the colonial age...
    - ttyprintk 2y ago
      That describes the typical straw man in the argument. Many people with some university preparation try to take a position that empathy for the suffering of ordinary people is greater if you performatively believe in systems and colonization.
    - keybored 2y ago
      But they said current involvement. > > It's crazy to think people still deny current US involvement in other countries, given all this past evidence. Although the past is used as a sort of implied argument here.
    - reaperman 2y ago
      What is a "cope out"? I've never seen that term and googling doesn't show a definition for that phrase. You use that same phrase - "a lazy cope out" - twice.
      - ttyprintk 2y ago
        Spell check for “cop out” which is a slang idiom “to evade”.
        varelaseb 2y ago
        I don't think it's an autocorrect error. Cop doesn't get turned into cope. I think the guy just think's it's "cope out" from seeing the word cope thrown around in similar contexts.
        shermantanktop 2y ago
        Right, a spelling flame, got it.
- ks2048 2y ago
  In some tech circles, it’s not denial of involvement, but that involvement is good and needs to be stronger. See the recent viral monologue from the CEO of Palantir where he says we need to dominate and have everyone live in fear of us (and if you disagree, you’re a woke pagan).
  - IncreasePosts 2y ago
    We hear that all the time from all sides though. This is a bit reductive, but the people who commonly shout "The US shouldn't be the world police!" are the same people who are begging the US to send more and more money and munitions to Ukraine.
    - rascul 2y ago
      Some might be. Don't put them all together, though.
    - pjc50 2y ago
      (Almost) uniquely, Ukraine is a just cause that's actually winnable and popular with the people of Ukraine. It's very, very different from the banana republics that this thread started with.
  - Yeul 2y ago
    That kind of bullying is why countries turn to China. Xi Jinping painting China as the champion of free trade versus the isolationist America. It strikes a chord with my country let me tell you that.
0dayz 2y ago
Seriously that channel? The same channel who said it's nato and the west's fault that Russia is invading Ukraine? Who also did a fluff piece on north Korea?
- Cumpiler69 2y ago
  >The same channel who said it's nato and the west's fault that Russia is invading Ukraine? I don't remember them saying that. I do remember them showing US political and financial involvement in Ukraine. >Who also did a fluff piece on north Korea? Someone didn't get the humor and sarcasm I guess.
  - ttyprintk 2y ago
    An AI summary of that channel’s Ukraine video does fall into a narrative I’ve seen in the West: 1. Eastern states joined NATO for defense 2. This redirected Russian aggression to Chechnya, Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine 3. Thus, the invading forces must themselves be acting with circumspection about NATO This reasoning tends to prefer analysis rather than emphasize what invading armies do to civilians. We know what’s happening to civilians in each of those invasions. We do not know (and should not care) if each soldier has an opinion of NATO.
  - gruez 2y ago
    >>The same channel who said it's nato and the west's fault that Russia is invading Ukraine? >I don't remember them saying that. I do remember them showing US political and financial involvement in Ukraine. They stopped short of saying it explicitly, but it was strongly implied. The whole video basically lists out all of russia's motivation for the war, and then concludes with "now there's a war in europe [...] if there was only someone who have predicted it, someone with power to stop it" followed by a few sound bites/clips strongly alluding to Western defense officials. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL4eNy4FCs8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL4eNy4FCs8
    - Cumpiler69 2y ago
      I love it when people go off the beaten path to prove that wrong opinions about one unrelated topic somehow must automatically disprove true facts about a completely different topic. It's the playbook of trolls. Whataboutism at it's finest.
ttyprintk 2y ago
The way I see it, anti-Communist paranoia was so strong mid-century that a certain kind of self promotion propelled someone into CIA decision making. Agents could dose LSD to random workers, in public. Agents could take LSD on the job. The same government which tolerated that also needed to emphasize the importance of diplomacy to avoid a nuclear first strike. Even though Russian radar specialists avoided war by remaining calm, it’s true that global revolution was a widespread priority and tropical leaders who wanted favors tended not to be calm. The objectives and contradictions are very different now. The first 14 James Bond movies were trying to avert a madman obsessed with triggering a nuclear first strike. The next 13 were not. The cool Russians who avoided hysteria devoted a generation of resources on real bad decisions made in Afghanistan. The only constant is how you’re treated if you get in the way of profit.
- Cumpiler69 2y ago
  >The way I see it, anti-Communist paranoia Ironically, the anti-communist paranoia is also what brought a lot of rights and perks to workers in the US and Europe. The ruling elite had to concede some demands to the working class to prevent the read scare from spreading. Now that threat is gone, we're seeing a claw-back (defanging unions, etc).
  - ttyprintk 2y ago
    I like the labor lens for seeing turning points in the Cold War. The oil crisis delegitimized socialist and communist plans. So I’m not sure those plans mattered in union gains. Polish Solidarity is a great example.
  - dylan604 2y ago
    read scare? I know some books are scary, but quite the typo from red scare. just in case someone wasn't familiar with the term.
- cess11 2y ago
  Paranoia? Not at all, the global left at the time was actually into things like racial and gender equality and so on, it was not just a paranoid delusion among elites in the USA. So called communist states actually built people's armies, actually brought people out of poverty and taught them to read and write and study, actually sent soldiers to colonies to fight the colonisers. The anti-left propaganda obviously did not want to put these things into focus, since it had clearly inspired rather successful revolutions and reform projects in Europe and elsewhere. Instead we got these medicalised narratives where socialism or communism is presented as a viral epidemic, or leftist leaders described as profoundly evil persons bent on subjugating the world under tyranny.
rolandog 2y ago
Thanks for sharing. I'm livid at the scope of injustice, corruption, and lack of accountability... From a previous discussion [0]: > I wish they'd not bury the lead here's what it is: For three decades, Chevron dumped billions of gallons of cancer-causing oil waste into the rivers and streams of the Amazon Rainforest in Ecuador. > This produced a devastating environmental catastrophe that resulted in the deaths of thousands of Indigenous peoples and farmers. Even today, Indigenous communities continue to face imminent risk of death due to exposure to Chevron’s toxic waste. > https://chuffed.org/campaign/free-donziger/bb https://chuffed.org/campaign/free-donziger/bb > The youtube video description doesn't even explain it. Here's a link to their Patreon to continue to support such informative creators [1], and a link to the Free Donzinger campaign [2]. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41848861 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41848861 [1]: https://www.patreon.com/Boy_Boy https://www.patreon.com/Boy_Boy [2]: https://chuffed.org/campaign/free-donziger/bb https://chuffed.org/campaign/free-donziger/bb

smallerfish 2y ago

Who denies US involvement in other countries? That seems a little bit of a straw man.

Cumpiler69 2y ago
>Who denies US involvement in other countries? You haven't been on HN long enough if you never saw it.
- InDubioProRubio 2y ago
  Because colonialism is used as a lazy cope out for all uncomfortable discussions. Shit in a mans yard in the past, and you are responsible for all future ills that befall him. And its such a lazy cope out- just proof the first sin of the past - and then its allover, no self-responsibility, not good things, no bad things, no history- just original sin was proven, im done here. And people are sick and tired of it- while the world is filled with counter- examples to that narrative just filling the news.
  - Cumpiler69 2y ago
    Are you saying western colonialism has no impact on the world of today? Not just colonialism from 200 years ago, but the colonialism happening today. You're moving the goalposts on the original sin, while I was discussing the issues of today or at least recent past (Iranian revolution was only in 1979, Invasion of Iraq was in 2003, Arab spring in 2011, Taliban rule form 2021). You can't just wave away decades or even centuries of oppression and intervention in other countries' affairs that changed them forever (that sill happen to this day BTW, and by the same powers), with "whatever mate, it was in the past", as if you broke my phone screen in junior school. No mate, it wasn't just in the past, it's still happening. Except colonialism today is less about large sailing wooden ships and conquistadors with muskets straight up stealing your shit from your town at gunpoint and shipping abroad along with slaves, but more alphabet agency black-ops and monetary/economic levers to topple your leader and replace him with a friendly puppet one who will willingly and legally sign off your country's resources and your peoples' labor to western corporations as salves, for way below market price. This isn't the original sin anymore, this is its modern version.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - InDubioProRubio 2y ago
      A vastly overrated impact, to almost non-existence by now. You can see the multi-polar world if you squint- and all that shit usually blamed at the west, turns out to be just murderous local land empires, blaming all the things they do to gain power on western influence or history, but actually doing the same thing they did before the west rolled up. We are just not that important. Never were actually, just lucky and luck is running out. Others now colonialize happy ever after in the original english image and if asked- tell you that they do it for "western interests" or customers. And its bullshit. And the audience walks out on that story, wherever its told. It has no explanation power any-more and if you tell a story without explanation power, it just gives credence to the assholes you pushed of the stage. Thus tooting that horn, is like glueing MAGA WAS RIGHT to every fence in town.
      - Cumpiler69 2y ago
        >A vastly overrated impact, to almost non-existence by now. I'll have to leave you right there, since I can't reason someone through argumentation from a position they did not reason themselves into in the first place, so this will go nowhere.
      - piva00 2y ago
        > A vastly overrated impact, to almost non-existence by now. Absurd take... Some examples: Brazil's democracy was put on hold during the whole period of growth post WW2, it has social impacts to this day both in wasteful investments done through 20+ years of dictatorship saddling the country with debt and disinvestment being paid to this day by current generations: lack of education, bad infrastructure, a fragile democracy since only 2 generations of voters have lived completely under it. The whole Middle East has sectarian violence caused by the borders drawn from colonial powers in control of regions up to the 1960s. The same is true for African civil wars ringing out to this day, nations (aka tribes) split into 2-3 countries to be more easily controlled by different colonial powers. To this day the USA meddles directly with governments south of it, the doctrine of strong-arming what the USA considers its backyard is still strong, American influence in South American politics is everywhere. > and all that shit usually blamed at the west, turns out to be just murderous local land empires, blaming all the things they do to gain power on western influence or history, but actually doing the same thing they did before the west rolled up As I mentioned, colonial powers drew borders to divide-and-conquer nations who are now fighting each other from all the bad blood caused by these divisions, do you actually really believe some 4-5 decades would be enough to erase all the infighting encouraged by colonial powers to keep the locals weak and scattered? I really can't believe someone thinks the issues of colonialism can't have echoes way past the end of the colonial age...
  - ttyprintk 2y ago
    That describes the typical straw man in the argument. Many people with some university preparation try to take a position that empathy for the suffering of ordinary people is greater if you performatively believe in systems and colonization.
  - keybored 2y ago
    But they said current involvement. > > It's crazy to think people still deny current US involvement in other countries, given all this past evidence. Although the past is used as a sort of implied argument here.
  - reaperman 2y ago
    What is a "cope out"? I've never seen that term and googling doesn't show a definition for that phrase. You use that same phrase - "a lazy cope out" - twice.
    - ttyprintk 2y ago
      Spell check for “cop out” which is a slang idiom “to evade”.
      - varelaseb 2y ago
        I don't think it's an autocorrect error. Cop doesn't get turned into cope. I think the guy just think's it's "cope out" from seeing the word cope thrown around in similar contexts.
        shermantanktop 2y ago
        Right, a spelling flame, got it.
ks2048 2y ago
In some tech circles, it’s not denial of involvement, but that involvement is good and needs to be stronger. See the recent viral monologue from the CEO of Palantir where he says we need to dominate and have everyone live in fear of us (and if you disagree, you’re a woke pagan).
- IncreasePosts 2y ago
  We hear that all the time from all sides though. This is a bit reductive, but the people who commonly shout "The US shouldn't be the world police!" are the same people who are begging the US to send more and more money and munitions to Ukraine.
  - rascul 2y ago
    Some might be. Don't put them all together, though.
  - pjc50 2y ago
    (Almost) uniquely, Ukraine is a just cause that's actually winnable and popular with the people of Ukraine. It's very, very different from the banana republics that this thread started with.
- Yeul 2y ago
  That kind of bullying is why countries turn to China. Xi Jinping painting China as the champion of free trade versus the isolationist America. It strikes a chord with my country let me tell you that.

0dayz 2y ago

Seriously that channel? The same channel who said it's nato and the west's fault that Russia is invading Ukraine? Who also did a fluff piece on north Korea?

Cumpiler69 2y ago
>The same channel who said it's nato and the west's fault that Russia is invading Ukraine? I don't remember them saying that. I do remember them showing US political and financial involvement in Ukraine. >Who also did a fluff piece on north Korea? Someone didn't get the humor and sarcasm I guess.
- ttyprintk 2y ago
  An AI summary of that channel’s Ukraine video does fall into a narrative I’ve seen in the West: 1. Eastern states joined NATO for defense 2. This redirected Russian aggression to Chechnya, Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine 3. Thus, the invading forces must themselves be acting with circumspection about NATO This reasoning tends to prefer analysis rather than emphasize what invading armies do to civilians. We know what’s happening to civilians in each of those invasions. We do not know (and should not care) if each soldier has an opinion of NATO.
- gruez 2y ago
  >>The same channel who said it's nato and the west's fault that Russia is invading Ukraine? >I don't remember them saying that. I do remember them showing US political and financial involvement in Ukraine. They stopped short of saying it explicitly, but it was strongly implied. The whole video basically lists out all of russia's motivation for the war, and then concludes with "now there's a war in europe [...] if there was only someone who have predicted it, someone with power to stop it" followed by a few sound bites/clips strongly alluding to Western defense officials. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL4eNy4FCs8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL4eNy4FCs8
  - Cumpiler69 2y ago
    I love it when people go off the beaten path to prove that wrong opinions about one unrelated topic somehow must automatically disprove true facts about a completely different topic. It's the playbook of trolls. Whataboutism at it's finest.

ttyprintk 2y ago

The way I see it, anti-Communist paranoia was so strong mid-century that a certain kind of self promotion propelled someone into CIA decision making. Agents could dose LSD to random workers, in public. Agents could take LSD on the job. The same government which tolerated that also needed to emphasize the importance of diplomacy to avoid a nuclear first strike. Even though Russian radar specialists avoided war by remaining calm, it’s true that global revolution was a widespread priority and tropical leaders who wanted favors tended not to be calm. The objectives and contradictions are very different now. The first 14 James Bond movies were trying to avert a madman obsessed with triggering a nuclear first strike. The next 13 were not. The cool Russians who avoided hysteria devoted a generation of resources on real bad decisions made in Afghanistan. The only constant is how you’re treated if you get in the way of profit.

Cumpiler69 2y ago
>The way I see it, anti-Communist paranoia Ironically, the anti-communist paranoia is also what brought a lot of rights and perks to workers in the US and Europe. The ruling elite had to concede some demands to the working class to prevent the read scare from spreading. Now that threat is gone, we're seeing a claw-back (defanging unions, etc).
- ttyprintk 2y ago
  I like the labor lens for seeing turning points in the Cold War. The oil crisis delegitimized socialist and communist plans. So I’m not sure those plans mattered in union gains. Polish Solidarity is a great example.
- dylan604 2y ago
  read scare? I know some books are scary, but quite the typo from red scare. just in case someone wasn't familiar with the term.
cess11 2y ago
Paranoia? Not at all, the global left at the time was actually into things like racial and gender equality and so on, it was not just a paranoid delusion among elites in the USA. So called communist states actually built people's armies, actually brought people out of poverty and taught them to read and write and study, actually sent soldiers to colonies to fight the colonisers. The anti-left propaganda obviously did not want to put these things into focus, since it had clearly inspired rather successful revolutions and reform projects in Europe and elsewhere. Instead we got these medicalised narratives where socialism or communism is presented as a viral epidemic, or leftist leaders described as profoundly evil persons bent on subjugating the world under tyranny.

rolandog 2y ago

Thanks for sharing. I'm livid at the scope of injustice, corruption, and lack of accountability... From a previous discussion [0]: > I wish they'd not bury the lead here's what it is: For three decades, Chevron dumped billions of gallons of cancer-causing oil waste into the rivers and streams of the Amazon Rainforest in Ecuador. > This produced a devastating environmental catastrophe that resulted in the deaths of thousands of Indigenous peoples and farmers. Even today, Indigenous communities continue to face imminent risk of death due to exposure to Chevron’s toxic waste. > https://chuffed.org/campaign/free-donziger/bb https://chuffed.org/campaign/free-donziger/bb > The youtube video description doesn't even explain it. Here's a link to their Patreon to continue to support such informative creators [1], and a link to the Free Donzinger campaign [2]. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41848861 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41848861 [1]: https://www.patreon.com/Boy_Boy https://www.patreon.com/Boy_Boy [2]: https://chuffed.org/campaign/free-donziger/bb https://chuffed.org/campaign/free-donziger/bb