3 ms·

Is battery manufacturing that bad for the environment? I mean, ICE cars still have wheels, drivetrains, chassis, doors, windows, chairs, electronics, paint and

Is battery manufacturing that bad for the environment? I mean, ICE cars still have wheels, drivetrains, chassis, doors, windows, chairs, electronics, paint and many other things, same as the EVs. The electric motor I can't imagine its worse to produce than a combustion motor. So that leaves batteries as the cause of this huge disparity on day one, that takes 100,000km of fuel consumption to overtake. Is this with the battery tech of today, december 2024? So for EVs built in 2020 let's say, it was worse? I think there is some advancement in battery making, isn't there?

logifail 2y ago
> The electric motor I can't imagine its worse to produce than a combustion motor I assumed we're attempting to weigh up keeping an ICE vehicle that already exists - like my 10 year old diesel - vs building building a new EV vehicle and scrapping the old ICE.
- vel0city 2y ago
  Nobody is crushing their ICE and dumping it in the lake when they replace their existing and working ICE with an EV. They're selling/trading in their ICE which someone else will buy and use until it's not worth servicing anymore.
  - logifail 2y ago
    > Nobody is crushing their ICE and dumping it in the lake when they replace their existing and working ICE with an EV Although maybe we're missing a trick. Not the dumping-it-in-the-lake bit(!), but the taking-an-old-ICE-out-of-circulation bit.
throwaway2037 2y ago
My guess: Most of the CO2 emissions for making cars comes from the body of the car. It is basically identical between ICE and EV. I guess a modern car body is a combo of steel and aluminium. (Is that correct?)
- logifail 2y ago
  (from 14 years ago, but still an interesting read) https://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/2010/sep/23/carbon-footprint-new-car https://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/20...
  - ZeroGravitas 2y ago
    Unfortunately that article is confused nonsense. It suggests that making an ICE car is roughly equal to the running in terms of carbon. In reality manufacturing is about 10%, disposal 5% and the other 85% from running it e.g. fuel and maintenance. It then suggests that keeping an old car is better because if you keep the car for twice as long then the emissions are half per mile, but you don't scrap functional cars you sell them onto someone else. This causes a cascade with the oldest and most polluting cars being scrapped.
    - logifail 2y ago
      > In reality manufacturing is about 10%, disposal 5% and the other 85% from running it e.g. fuel and maintenance I imagine this depends hugely on the kind of vehicle? Our small [petrol] car cost the equivalent of $10k on the road, including all taxes. It has a tiny engine, four seats, and limited luggage space. It's fairly fuel-efficient (at least when I'm driving). I've also recently driven a BMW 5 series (booked the cheapest "compact manual" as an airport rental vehicle, got that instead - win!) List price around 10x that of our little car. Nicer ride, of course. Bigger luggage space. Five seats. Presumably in terms of carbon the BMW's manufacturing costs vastly exceed that of small cars, but is the carbon manufacturing cost linear with either its fuel efficiency or with its price?
      - ZeroGravitas 2y ago
        You can look up a range of individual cars and compare here: https://www.carboncounter.com/#!/details?cars=34797;36030;34789 https://www.carboncounter.com/#!/details?cars=34797;36030;34... The tool also lets you set various assumptions like miles driven per year to see how they affect things.
Workaccount2 2y ago
>Is battery manufacturing that bad for the environment? In any practical sense, no, it's not. Its a dumb argument pushed by people trying to sandbag EVs.
- specialist 2y ago
  Yes and: Current recycling tech is pretty terrific (IIRC ~98% recovery of lithium, misc metals). Enabling the long fabled "circular" economy. At some point we'll hit a (near) equilibrium. IIRC, ~20 years out. (Assuming Li-ion battery tech continues to improve at current rate. Thereby balancing out the lithium lost during recycling.) So we'll hit something like "peak lithium", greatly reducing mining (extraction) of new lithium. Recycling is much cheaper than mining (both $ and CO2). (I believe, but obliviously can't prove, that sodium (et al) batteries will enable new use cases and markets, complimenting lithium rather than replacing it.)

logifail 2y ago

> The electric motor I can't imagine its worse to produce than a combustion motor I assumed we're attempting to weigh up keeping an ICE vehicle that already exists - like my 10 year old diesel - vs building building a new EV vehicle and scrapping the old ICE.

vel0city 2y ago
Nobody is crushing their ICE and dumping it in the lake when they replace their existing and working ICE with an EV. They're selling/trading in their ICE which someone else will buy and use until it's not worth servicing anymore.
- logifail 2y ago
  > Nobody is crushing their ICE and dumping it in the lake when they replace their existing and working ICE with an EV Although maybe we're missing a trick. Not the dumping-it-in-the-lake bit(!), but the taking-an-old-ICE-out-of-circulation bit.

throwaway2037 2y ago

My guess: Most of the CO2 emissions for making cars comes from the body of the car. It is basically identical between ICE and EV. I guess a modern car body is a combo of steel and aluminium. (Is that correct?)

logifail 2y ago
(from 14 years ago, but still an interesting read) https://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/2010/sep/23/carbon-footprint-new-car https://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/20...
- ZeroGravitas 2y ago
  Unfortunately that article is confused nonsense. It suggests that making an ICE car is roughly equal to the running in terms of carbon. In reality manufacturing is about 10%, disposal 5% and the other 85% from running it e.g. fuel and maintenance. It then suggests that keeping an old car is better because if you keep the car for twice as long then the emissions are half per mile, but you don't scrap functional cars you sell them onto someone else. This causes a cascade with the oldest and most polluting cars being scrapped.
  - logifail 2y ago
    > In reality manufacturing is about 10%, disposal 5% and the other 85% from running it e.g. fuel and maintenance I imagine this depends hugely on the kind of vehicle? Our small [petrol] car cost the equivalent of $10k on the road, including all taxes. It has a tiny engine, four seats, and limited luggage space. It's fairly fuel-efficient (at least when I'm driving). I've also recently driven a BMW 5 series (booked the cheapest "compact manual" as an airport rental vehicle, got that instead - win!) List price around 10x that of our little car. Nicer ride, of course. Bigger luggage space. Five seats. Presumably in terms of carbon the BMW's manufacturing costs vastly exceed that of small cars, but is the carbon manufacturing cost linear with either its fuel efficiency or with its price?
    - ZeroGravitas 2y ago
      You can look up a range of individual cars and compare here: https://www.carboncounter.com/#!/details?cars=34797;36030;34789 https://www.carboncounter.com/#!/details?cars=34797;36030;34... The tool also lets you set various assumptions like miles driven per year to see how they affect things.

Workaccount2 2y ago

>Is battery manufacturing that bad for the environment? In any practical sense, no, it's not. Its a dumb argument pushed by people trying to sandbag EVs.

specialist 2y ago
Yes and: Current recycling tech is pretty terrific (IIRC ~98% recovery of lithium, misc metals). Enabling the long fabled "circular" economy. At some point we'll hit a (near) equilibrium. IIRC, ~20 years out. (Assuming Li-ion battery tech continues to improve at current rate. Thereby balancing out the lithium lost during recycling.) So we'll hit something like "peak lithium", greatly reducing mining (extraction) of new lithium. Recycling is much cheaper than mining (both $ and CO2). (I believe, but obliviously can't prove, that sodium (et al) batteries will enable new use cases and markets, complimenting lithium rather than replacing it.)