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Maybe the title is link bait, but I don't think this is "sexism" by definition. Sexism: "Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women,

Maybe the title is link bait, but I don't think this is "sexism" by definition. Sexism: "Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex." A bunch of males were hitting on the author, crassly or awkwardly, but they were not denying the author equal rights. If a female asked a male to show their privates, no one would call it "sexism"; it might be rude, uncalled for, or strange, but not sexism. At a place like DefCon, most of the males are probably not regular bar-hoppers -- they mostly introverted, and probably fail miserably when trying to approach the opposite sex. (Not to knock on anybody, I am introverted/awkward myself.) Long story short, if you step into a bar full of males who normally have few opportunities to make contact with women in a social context...yes, you are stepping into the lion's den. Males are sexual, but not necessarily "sexist" -- don't confuse the two.

bkrausz 14y ago
> Long story short, if you step into a bar full of males who normally have few opportunities to make contact with women in a social context...yes, you are stepping into the lion's den. Males are sexual, but not necessarily "sexist" -- don't confuse the two. On the one hand, I believe you are technically correct (the best kind of correct). On the other, you seem to be implying that this kind of behavior is somehow ok or even justifiable. Explainable, certainly, but it's not justifiable. "Stepping into the lion's den" makes it sound like it's their fault for going to Defcon and not expecting to get grabbed. If this was something as harmless as a lot of men glancing at her, or even the occasional crude date offer, I would agree with you, but being grabbed, asked to show tits, etc. These cross a line that any reasonable person would know not to cross. It's reasonable to minimize potentially promiscuous clothing at an event full of under-socialized individuals. It's not reasonable to have to pass out cards that identify that blatant propositioning is inappropriate.
- gavanwoolery 14y ago
  I agree - I do not think this type of behavior should be condoned or justified, but I do believe it should be expected. I have seen the same behavior in many bars/clubs. Deep down, every man want two things: food and sex (akin to Freud's "id"). When you have enough drinks in you, your control/moral mechanisms get toned down (your ego and super ego). So, yes, in any bar full of drunk males, any female should expect to get harassed. For clarification, this is expected, but not justifiable or condonable, in my opinion. If you give a knife, fork, and napkin to a starving person, and then feed them a steak, do you think they will act civilized and use proper manners, or pick it up and tear into with their teeth? It is a thin line that separates us from the beasts. ;)
  - mootothemax 14y ago
    Deep down, every man want two things: food and sex (akin to Freud's "id"). When you have enough drinks in you, your control/moral mechanisms get toned down (your ego and super ego) This is terrible and a disgusting position to take. I am quite capable of going to a bar, drinking like a teenager, and managing to go home, all without sexually harassing or assaulting anyone. You're attempting to justify awful behaviour by saying that it should expected. If you, or any of your friends, are incapable of appearing in public without harassing or assaulting another person, the problem very much does not lie with the person on the receiving end.
    - mkramlich 14y ago
      > If you, or any of your friends, are incapable of appearing in public without [flirting, hitting on and/or touching] another person, the problem very much does not lie with the person on the receiving end. [... Wait what?] Adjusted that for you to illustrate a different perspective.
      - mkaltenecker 14y ago
        Sigh. You are deliberately obtuse, aren’t you?
        mkramlich 14y ago
        No. Deliberately insightful and helpful, I hope.
        mkaltenecker 14y ago
        Grabbing someone's ass without their consent is inexcusable harassment. You do not do it. Ever. This is simple. Not hard.
        natrius 14y ago
        Who are you implying disagrees with this? EDIT: There's now a sibling comment that disagrees with this. Mea culpa.
- enqk 14y ago
  I think the onus is on those damn men to get the fuck out and interact with women normally in the course of their lives, so as not to educate themselves about what it is to interact respectfully with other human beings.
  - mkramlich 14y ago
    > so as not to educate themselves about what it is to interact respectfully with other human beings. Indeed. Especially in a bar or hotel at night in Las Vegas at a convention full of adults. What the heck were they thinking? Save that rowdy animalistic raw sexual behavior back for your corporate IT office cubicle in Podunk, Iowa. :)
anigbrowl 14y ago
Oh for heaven's sake. It is not acceptable to ask strangers to display their bodies, no matter how rarely you get out. If you want to see somebody with their clothes off, go to a fucking strip club. Stop making excuses for this bullshit behavior. If you can't understand this, visit a therapist who can help you to navigate social situations.
- bnr 14y ago
  Of course it's not acceptable. But the victim being female does not automatically make the act sexism.
  - anigbrowl 14y ago
    It's sexist whenever you have a big disparity that people exploit as an excuse for sexual harassment, whether a small number of women in a crowd of men or a small number of men in a big crowd of women. I purposely omitted any mention of gender in the grandparent comment.
DanBC 14y ago
> stereotyping, [...] women, on the basis of sex." Licking a woman's shoulder, because she is a woman, is clearly a sexist act. It's also a criminal offence in several countries. I cannot believe that we still need to have this discussion. I have every sympathy for lonely, isolated, people; especially if they're on the ASD spectrum. I'd welcome any sensible effort to help those people develop some social skills or get some nice social life or some company. But that does not excuse them when they assault another person - and a deliberate touch without their permission counts as battery.
- cperciva 14y ago
  Licking a woman's shoulder, because she is a woman, is clearly a sexist act. No; it's sexual harassment and assault, but it's not sexist. Sexism would be if someone said "you're female, therefore you want to have your shoulder licked".
  - DanBC 14y ago
    It is sexist because the assumption made is "you're female, and thus I can lick your shoulder and you will not mind, and if you do mind it's your own fault for being a woman in this place with lonely men". Unless you're seriously trying to tell me that there are men walking around defcon licking the shoulders of other men as a clumsy come on.
    - cperciva 14y ago
      I don't think that assumption was being made. It seems more likely to me that the culprits don't care if the victim minds having her shoulder licked -- most likely, didn't even think about it.
- mkramlich 14y ago
  sexual != sexist hitting on != harassment touching != assault (protip: it's just touching; bashing their fist into your face, for example, would be assault by a more common sense person's definition; but touching is just touching, regardless of what some arbitrary legal verbage says somewhere; a document could say "a horse is a squid" but if that horse doesn't look or act anything at all like a squid then a reasonable person would say it's not a squid, it's a fucking horse) The problem is that some folks (both male and female) don't always perceive things the same way. Indeed, when someone (anyone, whether male or female) is "in the mood" they often interpret events and other people much differently than if they aren't. Add alcohol, add social inexperience, and these differences can magnify or become more frequent.
fromhet 14y ago
Well, is it the dictionary that holds the true definition or is it the people who use the word who do? Give it a thought and you'll realize that the dictionary is made of (static) paper but language is an evolving, living thing. You claim we men, like animals, can't control ourselves, but that is false. Everyone everyday has 'opportunities' to harass women. But believe it or not, even men can be civilized and gentle. Try it! Is the bully innocent because all the nerds are just so very dorky? Is the creep innocent just because there are too many women?
dazzawazza 14y ago
There is a grain of truth in what you say but if you look behind the individual acts I think it does show sexism. The idea that a woman would 'show her tits' in public or private to a strange man when asked in public smacks me as sexist. Who ever created the score sheet where one of the goals was to 'get a woman to show her tits' shows an objectification of woman as purely sexual objects. This disadvantages 50% of the population based on their mammary glands. It is a fact that men and woman flirt, it's one of the most exciting things that can happen, when two people click its quite frankly amazing. This needs to be separated from pure objectification of anyone. If it were woman asking to see men's gonads many many men would feel deeply uncomfortable surrounded by woman with an expectation of a show and an implicit questioning/judging of the quality of their sack.
chipsy 14y ago
Everyone with emotions also needs some kind of moral code that complements the emotions and gives both adequate explanations and society-beneficial outcomes - and that includes appropriate behavior for settings like a professional conference. The problem is, and has been since the dawn of civilization - which moral code is best, and how do we educate people into it? Your stated view has a "might makes right" ring to it - it's acceptable for the majority to prey on the minority. I hope you don't really think that's optimal for society.
jessedhillon 14y ago
Prejudice, as in, a default judgment/assessment weighing against an individual? I submit that the idea that it's permitted to treat this person less respectfully because they are a woman is such a judgment, and it is on the basis of sex. Stereotyping, as in a belief... about specific types of individuals or certain ways of doing things, but that belief may or may not accurately reflect reality. Again, I submit that the entire story is about OP having to contend with the notion that any and all women are available and open to sexual advances, and that the prejudice against respectful behavior toward them makes it easier/permissible to make those advances. The fact that you simply cannot conceive of a plausible reverse scenario does not mean that something is not sexism. There doesn't have to be a reverse scenario, nor do mitigating life circumstances matter; everyone has a back story. Your last line is one small step away from saying that women who wear short skirts are asking to be groped. It's tantamount to saying women don't deserve to be treated respectfully or feel safe, if enough of the males surrounding them are losers. You might as well be saying, "don't have boobs, some men haven't seen those."
- redthrowaway 14y ago
  >the notion that any and all women are available and open to sexual advances Advances, in and of themselves, are fine. All people are subject to them, and simple rejection should suffice to show a lack of openness. The line is crossed when those advances are disrespectful and/or inappropriate. If you put 950 men and 50 women together, those women will get hit on, and there's nothing wrong with that. The wrongness comes from treating the women as objects or somehow not as deserving of respect as their male counterparts. We wouldn't be hearing about this if the advances were restricted to, "would you like to grab a drink later?".
- gavanwoolery 14y ago
  Wow, way to put a bunch of words in my mouth. Actually, what I am saying is that nature is not always nice or civilized. When you get a bunch of drunk males into a room, their super ego goes down and they will begin to behave (almost literally) like animals. Is it right or wrong? I don't know, but it is not sexism. Is it to be expected? Yes. How do I know it is to be expected? Because you can easily replicate the situation. Go to Cancun if you want to see males in their most animal-state. Is it condonable? I do not know, but it is the way nature made us. Nature designed us to want reproduce - without our rules, morals, and what-have-you, we would be doing much worse things than asking to see private parts. Unfortunately, nature also gave us language, which means a lot of times males will utter really stupid things because their sex-drive takes over and their brain reaches a state of near-retardation (hence the popular phrase "show us your tits"). In shorter words - if you are a female in a bar that is overwhelmingly packed with males -- yes, you should very much expect to get harassed. Yes, it is not "right", but its the way nature made us so there is not a lot of sense in complaining about it. You could just as well complain about people being obese, because nature designed us to enjoy food. Am I saying women deserve to be harassed when they dress sexually? No, of course not. But what I am saying is that some males have less super ego than others, and it varies with the situation, so there are certain situations (like this one) in which a female could certainly expect to be harassed.
token_female 14y ago
Without fail, the top comment on every HN link related to sexism in the field is "that's not sexism!". What is it going to take to convince you that sexism in the tech community is real and is a big part of why there are so few women? How many women have to tell you about their experiences being sexually harassed at tech conferences before you realize that it is a problem? HN/Reddit's responses to this kind of article piss me off almost as much as the events described in the articles themselves.
- natrius 14y ago
  This thread is an argument about semantics. No one is disagreeing with the notion that "[gender-related, uncomfortable situations like those presented in the article] in the tech community is real and is a big part of why there are so few women." People are disagreeing that "sexism" is the right term to use. I don't see why this would be bothersome. The argument has few practical implications, but people like to argue. Has someone said that the author's experiences are acceptable?
- gavanwoolery 14y ago
  You know what is sexism? A qualified female applies for a job. A less qualified male gets it because he is a male. That is easy to interpret as sexism - deliberate bias of one sex over another. Groping a female - sexual harassment maybe. Sexism is not the correct term. Like others said, semantics is what we are upset about here. Hacker News just happens to be filled with enough rational people who can identify what is and what is not sexism. No one here is sexist, or pro-sexism (for the most part at least). In fact, most of us encourage females to get involved in IT/CS.
drewwwwww 14y ago
Hi gavanwoolery, There's potentially quite a bit to unpack in your statement above. I'm going to try to keep it short and to the point, because it seems you missed it in the original post. You may be a truly masterful troll. The poster made the cards because she is literally subject to an onslaught of crude behavior, simply due to her appearing to be a woman, while at Defcon. Defcon, as you may know, is open to anyone who wants to attend. It is not a "lion's den". Nobody should have to question whether or not they should restrict themselves from entering a public place with their friends, especially due to a feature of their humanity that was present from birth. Furthermore, this is anything but an isolated incident, which your lion's den theory that she should know better acknowledges. The idea that the expression of male sexuality is completely justified no matter what form it takes is obviously ludicrous and impinging on the human rights of non-males. The conception of this male behavior being expected or unavoidable is exactly what is meant by male privilege. Simply imagine you were subject to this behavior constantly by a group of people who are generally bigger, stronger, rarely held to account, defend each other as a group, and make a great deal more money than you over your lifetime. Each individual act is not necessarily sexist; to contend that anyone is saying that is building a atraw man. Sexism is an aggregation of these behaviors that is unfairly inflicted upon one group by another. Thanks for taking the time to read this, if you do.
- gavanwoolery 14y ago
  Hi drewwwwww, TL;DR - sexism can be a misnomer/umbrella term, and that is my main gripe. When something is indeed sexist, I would readily call that out. For example, not hiring a qualified female based on her sex qualifies as sexism to me. Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I totally agree that it is not an isolated incident, and thus any knowing female should expect it to happen in similar circumstances. Like I have said in other replies several times, I never justify or condone the behavior, I only seek to explain it. It is "expected" behavior - as in, if I were a female in Las Vegas in a bar full of drunk males, I would expect a certain level of crassness (not justified crassness, but crassness). I think her cards are a potentially good idea, with some modifications. Red, yellow, green (like a stop light) would be a great mechanism for males, because honestly much of the time we are just clueless or naive. Flagging males as sexual offenders or creeps is a bit questionable for being hit on in a bar. Also as I pointed out in other comments, sexism is different from sexual harassment, sexual exploitation, misogyny, and sexual advances. There are plenty of cases of sexism, but I do not think getting hit on rudely in a bar is necessarily sexist (unless the male somehow makes you feel inferior because of your sex, but usually it is just a crass way of throwing a compliment). Males are actually held very accountable in our current legal system (in the US, at least). Rape cases tend to favor the female (as with the UCSB soccer player from Africa who was seemingly wrongly accused and is doing jail time now). Most people do not risk sexism in the workplace (or elsewhere) for fear of a lawsuit. Males are generally bigger and stronger, and occasionally dangerous, but we can't do much about that beyond what is already being done, so I do not know what else can be said about that.
adrianhoward 14y ago
So... a behaviour like "Like the man who tried to get me to show him my tits so he could punch a hole in a card that, when filled, would net him a favor from one of the official security staff" - expecting that to actually work. Expecting women to think that was okay. That's not "stereotyping" or "Prejudice"? Expecting women to be okay with "Like the man who drunkenly tried to lick my shoulder tattoo. Like the man who grabbed my hips while I was waiting for a drink at the EFF party" is not discrimination? Long story short, if you step into a bar full of males who normally have few opportunities to make contact with women in a social context...yes, you are stepping into the lion's den. Males are sexual, but not necessarily "sexist" -- don't confuse the two. Humans are sexual. Men and women. Wanting to have sex does not automatically mean you have to be an asshat. Being an introvert and wanting to have sex doesn't mean you have to be an asshat. I managed to do it when I was young. My friends did to. Treating other human beings with respect shouldn't be a hard thing for people to learn.
- mkramlich 14y ago
  > Expecting women to be okay with "Like the man who drunkenly tried to lick my shoulder tattoo. Like the man who grabbed my hips while I was waiting for a drink at the EFF party" is not discrimination? Simpler explanation: those guys were horny, drunk and/or being really really forward. But was the woman harmed? Heck no. Also I'm always amused by these stories of people who go to bars at night and then are shocked, SHOCKED that there are horny, forward, inebriated people there. Clearly, that should be a highly professional, sober, uptight and asexual environment. If someone wanted that kind of attention they would have gone to the library or a local church where that stuff belongs.
mkramlich 14y ago
and in Las Vegas of all places! agreed, sexual != sexist
derleth 14y ago
> Males are sexual So are females. Go to a club where males are stripping for women and you'll see women doing things that would get a man kicked out of a titty bar. Thinking otherwise is 19th Century nonsense. Go back to Ancient Greece and you find the play Lysistrata, where the entire point was that women were so ruled by their sexuality that the very idea of them withholding sex was absurd.
mkaltenecker 14y ago
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you miss the academic discussion on sexism by AUs. You dictionary won’t help you there. Try to actually learn something about the topic, and not by reading a fucking dictionary. That’s useless.
wildgift 14y ago
I work in a workplace that's mostly women, with women in leadership positions. If the women asked me to show my c--- I'd consider that sexual harassment and a sexist abuse of power. I'm fat and if someone dissed me for that, I'd also consider that a kind of harassment. I wouldn't accept the "but she's a nerd" or "she's clueless" as an excuse. After a certain age, you are responsible for learning some politeness.

bkrausz 14y ago

> Long story short, if you step into a bar full of males who normally have few opportunities to make contact with women in a social context...yes, you are stepping into the lion's den. Males are sexual, but not necessarily "sexist" -- don't confuse the two. On the one hand, I believe you are technically correct (the best kind of correct). On the other, you seem to be implying that this kind of behavior is somehow ok or even justifiable. Explainable, certainly, but it's not justifiable. "Stepping into the lion's den" makes it sound like it's their fault for going to Defcon and not expecting to get grabbed. If this was something as harmless as a lot of men glancing at her, or even the occasional crude date offer, I would agree with you, but being grabbed, asked to show tits, etc. These cross a line that any reasonable person would know not to cross. It's reasonable to minimize potentially promiscuous clothing at an event full of under-socialized individuals. It's not reasonable to have to pass out cards that identify that blatant propositioning is inappropriate.

gavanwoolery 14y ago
I agree - I do not think this type of behavior should be condoned or justified, but I do believe it should be expected. I have seen the same behavior in many bars/clubs. Deep down, every man want two things: food and sex (akin to Freud's "id"). When you have enough drinks in you, your control/moral mechanisms get toned down (your ego and super ego). So, yes, in any bar full of drunk males, any female should expect to get harassed. For clarification, this is expected, but not justifiable or condonable, in my opinion. If you give a knife, fork, and napkin to a starving person, and then feed them a steak, do you think they will act civilized and use proper manners, or pick it up and tear into with their teeth? It is a thin line that separates us from the beasts. ;)
- mootothemax 14y ago
  Deep down, every man want two things: food and sex (akin to Freud's "id"). When you have enough drinks in you, your control/moral mechanisms get toned down (your ego and super ego) This is terrible and a disgusting position to take. I am quite capable of going to a bar, drinking like a teenager, and managing to go home, all without sexually harassing or assaulting anyone. You're attempting to justify awful behaviour by saying that it should expected. If you, or any of your friends, are incapable of appearing in public without harassing or assaulting another person, the problem very much does not lie with the person on the receiving end.
  - mkramlich 14y ago
    > If you, or any of your friends, are incapable of appearing in public without [flirting, hitting on and/or touching] another person, the problem very much does not lie with the person on the receiving end. [... Wait what?] Adjusted that for you to illustrate a different perspective.
    - mkaltenecker 14y ago
      Sigh. You are deliberately obtuse, aren’t you?
      - mkramlich 14y ago
        No. Deliberately insightful and helpful, I hope.
        mkaltenecker 14y ago
        Grabbing someone's ass without their consent is inexcusable harassment. You do not do it. Ever. This is simple. Not hard.
        natrius 14y ago
        Who are you implying disagrees with this? EDIT: There's now a sibling comment that disagrees with this. Mea culpa.
enqk 14y ago
I think the onus is on those damn men to get the fuck out and interact with women normally in the course of their lives, so as not to educate themselves about what it is to interact respectfully with other human beings.
- mkramlich 14y ago
  > so as not to educate themselves about what it is to interact respectfully with other human beings. Indeed. Especially in a bar or hotel at night in Las Vegas at a convention full of adults. What the heck were they thinking? Save that rowdy animalistic raw sexual behavior back for your corporate IT office cubicle in Podunk, Iowa. :)

anigbrowl 14y ago

Oh for heaven's sake. It is not acceptable to ask strangers to display their bodies, no matter how rarely you get out. If you want to see somebody with their clothes off, go to a fucking strip club. Stop making excuses for this bullshit behavior. If you can't understand this, visit a therapist who can help you to navigate social situations.

bnr 14y ago
Of course it's not acceptable. But the victim being female does not automatically make the act sexism.
- anigbrowl 14y ago
  It's sexist whenever you have a big disparity that people exploit as an excuse for sexual harassment, whether a small number of women in a crowd of men or a small number of men in a big crowd of women. I purposely omitted any mention of gender in the grandparent comment.

DanBC 14y ago

> stereotyping, [...] women, on the basis of sex." Licking a woman's shoulder, because she is a woman, is clearly a sexist act. It's also a criminal offence in several countries. I cannot believe that we still need to have this discussion. I have every sympathy for lonely, isolated, people; especially if they're on the ASD spectrum. I'd welcome any sensible effort to help those people develop some social skills or get some nice social life or some company. But that does not excuse them when they assault another person - and a deliberate touch without their permission counts as battery.

cperciva 14y ago
Licking a woman's shoulder, because she is a woman, is clearly a sexist act. No; it's sexual harassment and assault, but it's not sexist. Sexism would be if someone said "you're female, therefore you want to have your shoulder licked".
- DanBC 14y ago
  It is sexist because the assumption made is "you're female, and thus I can lick your shoulder and you will not mind, and if you do mind it's your own fault for being a woman in this place with lonely men". Unless you're seriously trying to tell me that there are men walking around defcon licking the shoulders of other men as a clumsy come on.
  - cperciva 14y ago
    I don't think that assumption was being made. It seems more likely to me that the culprits don't care if the victim minds having her shoulder licked -- most likely, didn't even think about it.
mkramlich 14y ago
sexual != sexist hitting on != harassment touching != assault (protip: it's just touching; bashing their fist into your face, for example, would be assault by a more common sense person's definition; but touching is just touching, regardless of what some arbitrary legal verbage says somewhere; a document could say "a horse is a squid" but if that horse doesn't look or act anything at all like a squid then a reasonable person would say it's not a squid, it's a fucking horse) The problem is that some folks (both male and female) don't always perceive things the same way. Indeed, when someone (anyone, whether male or female) is "in the mood" they often interpret events and other people much differently than if they aren't. Add alcohol, add social inexperience, and these differences can magnify or become more frequent.

fromhet 14y ago

Well, is it the dictionary that holds the true definition or is it the people who use the word who do? Give it a thought and you'll realize that the dictionary is made of (static) paper but language is an evolving, living thing. You claim we men, like animals, can't control ourselves, but that is false. Everyone everyday has 'opportunities' to harass women. But believe it or not, even men can be civilized and gentle. Try it! Is the bully innocent because all the nerds are just so very dorky? Is the creep innocent just because there are too many women?

dazzawazza 14y ago

There is a grain of truth in what you say but if you look behind the individual acts I think it does show sexism. The idea that a woman would 'show her tits' in public or private to a strange man when asked in public smacks me as sexist. Who ever created the score sheet where one of the goals was to 'get a woman to show her tits' shows an objectification of woman as purely sexual objects. This disadvantages 50% of the population based on their mammary glands. It is a fact that men and woman flirt, it's one of the most exciting things that can happen, when two people click its quite frankly amazing. This needs to be separated from pure objectification of anyone. If it were woman asking to see men's gonads many many men would feel deeply uncomfortable surrounded by woman with an expectation of a show and an implicit questioning/judging of the quality of their sack.

chipsy 14y ago

Everyone with emotions also needs some kind of moral code that complements the emotions and gives both adequate explanations and society-beneficial outcomes - and that includes appropriate behavior for settings like a professional conference. The problem is, and has been since the dawn of civilization - which moral code is best, and how do we educate people into it? Your stated view has a "might makes right" ring to it - it's acceptable for the majority to prey on the minority. I hope you don't really think that's optimal for society.

jessedhillon 14y ago

Prejudice, as in, a default judgment/assessment weighing against an individual? I submit that the idea that it's permitted to treat this person less respectfully because they are a woman is such a judgment, and it is on the basis of sex. Stereotyping, as in a belief... about specific types of individuals or certain ways of doing things, but that belief may or may not accurately reflect reality. Again, I submit that the entire story is about OP having to contend with the notion that any and all women are available and open to sexual advances, and that the prejudice against respectful behavior toward them makes it easier/permissible to make those advances. The fact that you simply cannot conceive of a plausible reverse scenario does not mean that something is not sexism. There doesn't have to be a reverse scenario, nor do mitigating life circumstances matter; everyone has a back story. Your last line is one small step away from saying that women who wear short skirts are asking to be groped. It's tantamount to saying women don't deserve to be treated respectfully or feel safe, if enough of the males surrounding them are losers. You might as well be saying, "don't have boobs, some men haven't seen those."

redthrowaway 14y ago
>the notion that any and all women are available and open to sexual advances Advances, in and of themselves, are fine. All people are subject to them, and simple rejection should suffice to show a lack of openness. The line is crossed when those advances are disrespectful and/or inappropriate. If you put 950 men and 50 women together, those women will get hit on, and there's nothing wrong with that. The wrongness comes from treating the women as objects or somehow not as deserving of respect as their male counterparts. We wouldn't be hearing about this if the advances were restricted to, "would you like to grab a drink later?".
gavanwoolery 14y ago
Wow, way to put a bunch of words in my mouth. Actually, what I am saying is that nature is not always nice or civilized. When you get a bunch of drunk males into a room, their super ego goes down and they will begin to behave (almost literally) like animals. Is it right or wrong? I don't know, but it is not sexism. Is it to be expected? Yes. How do I know it is to be expected? Because you can easily replicate the situation. Go to Cancun if you want to see males in their most animal-state. Is it condonable? I do not know, but it is the way nature made us. Nature designed us to want reproduce - without our rules, morals, and what-have-you, we would be doing much worse things than asking to see private parts. Unfortunately, nature also gave us language, which means a lot of times males will utter really stupid things because their sex-drive takes over and their brain reaches a state of near-retardation (hence the popular phrase "show us your tits"). In shorter words - if you are a female in a bar that is overwhelmingly packed with males -- yes, you should very much expect to get harassed. Yes, it is not "right", but its the way nature made us so there is not a lot of sense in complaining about it. You could just as well complain about people being obese, because nature designed us to enjoy food. Am I saying women deserve to be harassed when they dress sexually? No, of course not. But what I am saying is that some males have less super ego than others, and it varies with the situation, so there are certain situations (like this one) in which a female could certainly expect to be harassed.

token_female 14y ago

Without fail, the top comment on every HN link related to sexism in the field is "that's not sexism!". What is it going to take to convince you that sexism in the tech community is real and is a big part of why there are so few women? How many women have to tell you about their experiences being sexually harassed at tech conferences before you realize that it is a problem? HN/Reddit's responses to this kind of article piss me off almost as much as the events described in the articles themselves.

natrius 14y ago
This thread is an argument about semantics. No one is disagreeing with the notion that "[gender-related, uncomfortable situations like those presented in the article] in the tech community is real and is a big part of why there are so few women." People are disagreeing that "sexism" is the right term to use. I don't see why this would be bothersome. The argument has few practical implications, but people like to argue. Has someone said that the author's experiences are acceptable?
gavanwoolery 14y ago
You know what is sexism? A qualified female applies for a job. A less qualified male gets it because he is a male. That is easy to interpret as sexism - deliberate bias of one sex over another. Groping a female - sexual harassment maybe. Sexism is not the correct term. Like others said, semantics is what we are upset about here. Hacker News just happens to be filled with enough rational people who can identify what is and what is not sexism. No one here is sexist, or pro-sexism (for the most part at least). In fact, most of us encourage females to get involved in IT/CS.

drewwwwww 14y ago

Hi gavanwoolery, There's potentially quite a bit to unpack in your statement above. I'm going to try to keep it short and to the point, because it seems you missed it in the original post. You may be a truly masterful troll. The poster made the cards because she is literally subject to an onslaught of crude behavior, simply due to her appearing to be a woman, while at Defcon. Defcon, as you may know, is open to anyone who wants to attend. It is not a "lion's den". Nobody should have to question whether or not they should restrict themselves from entering a public place with their friends, especially due to a feature of their humanity that was present from birth. Furthermore, this is anything but an isolated incident, which your lion's den theory that she should know better acknowledges. The idea that the expression of male sexuality is completely justified no matter what form it takes is obviously ludicrous and impinging on the human rights of non-males. The conception of this male behavior being expected or unavoidable is exactly what is meant by male privilege. Simply imagine you were subject to this behavior constantly by a group of people who are generally bigger, stronger, rarely held to account, defend each other as a group, and make a great deal more money than you over your lifetime. Each individual act is not necessarily sexist; to contend that anyone is saying that is building a atraw man. Sexism is an aggregation of these behaviors that is unfairly inflicted upon one group by another. Thanks for taking the time to read this, if you do.

gavanwoolery 14y ago
Hi drewwwwww, TL;DR - sexism can be a misnomer/umbrella term, and that is my main gripe. When something is indeed sexist, I would readily call that out. For example, not hiring a qualified female based on her sex qualifies as sexism to me. Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I totally agree that it is not an isolated incident, and thus any knowing female should expect it to happen in similar circumstances. Like I have said in other replies several times, I never justify or condone the behavior, I only seek to explain it. It is "expected" behavior - as in, if I were a female in Las Vegas in a bar full of drunk males, I would expect a certain level of crassness (not justified crassness, but crassness). I think her cards are a potentially good idea, with some modifications. Red, yellow, green (like a stop light) would be a great mechanism for males, because honestly much of the time we are just clueless or naive. Flagging males as sexual offenders or creeps is a bit questionable for being hit on in a bar. Also as I pointed out in other comments, sexism is different from sexual harassment, sexual exploitation, misogyny, and sexual advances. There are plenty of cases of sexism, but I do not think getting hit on rudely in a bar is necessarily sexist (unless the male somehow makes you feel inferior because of your sex, but usually it is just a crass way of throwing a compliment). Males are actually held very accountable in our current legal system (in the US, at least). Rape cases tend to favor the female (as with the UCSB soccer player from Africa who was seemingly wrongly accused and is doing jail time now). Most people do not risk sexism in the workplace (or elsewhere) for fear of a lawsuit. Males are generally bigger and stronger, and occasionally dangerous, but we can't do much about that beyond what is already being done, so I do not know what else can be said about that.

adrianhoward 14y ago

So... a behaviour like "Like the man who tried to get me to show him my tits so he could punch a hole in a card that, when filled, would net him a favor from one of the official security staff" - expecting that to actually work. Expecting women to think that was okay. That's not "stereotyping" or "Prejudice"? Expecting women to be okay with "Like the man who drunkenly tried to lick my shoulder tattoo. Like the man who grabbed my hips while I was waiting for a drink at the EFF party" is not discrimination? Long story short, if you step into a bar full of males who normally have few opportunities to make contact with women in a social context...yes, you are stepping into the lion's den. Males are sexual, but not necessarily "sexist" -- don't confuse the two. Humans are sexual. Men and women. Wanting to have sex does not automatically mean you have to be an asshat. Being an introvert and wanting to have sex doesn't mean you have to be an asshat. I managed to do it when I was young. My friends did to. Treating other human beings with respect shouldn't be a hard thing for people to learn.

mkramlich 14y ago
> Expecting women to be okay with "Like the man who drunkenly tried to lick my shoulder tattoo. Like the man who grabbed my hips while I was waiting for a drink at the EFF party" is not discrimination? Simpler explanation: those guys were horny, drunk and/or being really really forward. But was the woman harmed? Heck no. Also I'm always amused by these stories of people who go to bars at night and then are shocked, SHOCKED that there are horny, forward, inebriated people there. Clearly, that should be a highly professional, sober, uptight and asexual environment. If someone wanted that kind of attention they would have gone to the library or a local church where that stuff belongs.

mkramlich 14y ago

and in Las Vegas of all places! agreed, sexual != sexist

derleth 14y ago

> Males are sexual So are females. Go to a club where males are stripping for women and you'll see women doing things that would get a man kicked out of a titty bar. Thinking otherwise is 19th Century nonsense. Go back to Ancient Greece and you find the play Lysistrata, where the entire point was that women were so ruled by their sexuality that the very idea of them withholding sex was absurd.

mkaltenecker 14y ago

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you miss the academic discussion on sexism by AUs. You dictionary won’t help you there. Try to actually learn something about the topic, and not by reading a fucking dictionary. That’s useless.

wildgift 14y ago

I work in a workplace that's mostly women, with women in leadership positions. If the women asked me to show my c--- I'd consider that sexual harassment and a sexist abuse of power. I'm fat and if someone dissed me for that, I'd also consider that a kind of harassment. I wouldn't accept the "but she's a nerd" or "she's clueless" as an excuse. After a certain age, you are responsible for learning some politeness.