4 ms·

You run the risk of the old regime continuing in some form and a repeat in a decade of the same war. Germany surrender in The Great War and the world was back a

You run the risk of the old regime continuing in some form and a repeat in a decade of the same war. Germany surrender in The Great War and the world was back at it again 15 years later. This played a big part in the attitude of do it right this time.

WalterBright 2y ago
Perhaps you're right, but it did come with a very large cost in lives on both sides.
tsimionescu 2y ago
None of the leaders of Germany in WWI were still in power by the time WWII started. The exact opposite lesson was in fact learned by the Allies from WWI: instead of crippling Germany and the other Axis powers like the French did after WWI, they went with the Marshall plan, rebuilding their economies and making sure they have an actual future. The Kaiser wasn't the problem after WWI, it was poverty that allowed the Nazis to rise to power.
- andrepd 2y ago
  >None of the leaders of Germany in WWI were still in power by the time WWII started. This isn't really true. Hindenburg was instrumental in Hitler's rise to power. Ludendorff was the de facto dictator during WWI and proceeded to create the stab-in-the-back myth and to fight for the Nazis. There is absolutely lots of continuity between the WWI regime and the Nazis.
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    Hindenburg was a senile old man at the time. He thought he could control Hitler.
- lupusreal 2y ago
  After Germany surrendered and the war in Europe was over, America began systematically dismantling West Germany's industrial capabilities. No aid was to be given save the absolute minimum needed to prevent starvation, all the work of rebuilding Germany was to be left to the Germans. The Red Cross was forbidden to visit allied camps of German POWs to provide food or aid. It was even forbidden for Americans to send packages of food to Germans. Over the next two or three years these orders were one-by-one rescinded and reversed, mostly for national security reasons when the Soviet threat was acknowledged and Germany's role in countering that Soviet threat was understood. But even then, in the end only a small portion of the Marshall plan went to West Germany. Most of it went to the rest of western Europe.
  - actionfromafar 2y ago
    18 countries got help from the Marshall plan, (West) Germany got 11% of it.
    - WalterBright 2y ago
      Britain and France got the bulk of it, and yet did not experience the economic revival that Germany did.
egeozcan 2y ago
So many people died... yet, people are still voting for the AfD, and the idea of the Final Solution[0] is still somewhat alive under the Master Plan name[1]. I love Germany, but as a migrant living here, this is a "bit" uncomfortable. I lived here 15 years and paid more than a million in taxes, then suddenly a "Start Remigration Now" poster appears[2]. Not cool. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Solution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Solution [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Potsdam_far-right_meeting#Master_plan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Potsdam_far-right_meeting... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Potsdam_far-right_meeting#/media/File:AfD-Wahlplakat_%22Remigration_sofort_starten!%22_in_M%C3%B6dlareuth_20240518_HOF3756_RAW-Export.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Potsdam_far-right_meeting...
- InfiniteLoup 2y ago
  > and the idea of the Final Solution[0] is still somewhat alive under the Master Plan name[1]. Sorry, but that's utter bullshit. Also, I wonder how you feel about Turkey's plans to remigrate Syrian refugees back to Syria now that Assad has been deposed.
  - egeozcan 2y ago
    No that's just a fact. It's the same ideology, trying to be sold under "more acceptable" terms. The BS part is people trying to make it sound milder than what it is. It even wants to deport German citizens who they claim to not have integrated well. More details on similarities: https://www.socialeurope.eu/when-never-again-becomes-again-and-again https://www.socialeurope.eu/when-never-again-becomes-again-a... I don't support any forced relocation of groups of people and find even very long prison sentences debatable. I'm also a big proponent of forcing Turkey to recognize the Armenian and other genocides. Nice try to poison the well though. People build their lives somewhere, relocating them usually means many steps back. If you ever migrated into a complete new country with different values and language, you would understand.
  - mschuster91 2y ago
    > Sorry, but that's utter bullshit. Have you missed the last ten years worth of radicalization in the AfD? They started out as what appeared to be a relatively normal fringe party under Lucke, and then over the years the far-right managed to shed ever more layers of the onion. Particularly Höcke, a man who you can legally call a fascist, gives me the chills. And the party youth manages to be even more radical than him, enough to scare the adults into attempting to clean up shop before the youth organization gets banned.

WalterBright 2y ago

Perhaps you're right, but it did come with a very large cost in lives on both sides.

tsimionescu 2y ago

None of the leaders of Germany in WWI were still in power by the time WWII started. The exact opposite lesson was in fact learned by the Allies from WWI: instead of crippling Germany and the other Axis powers like the French did after WWI, they went with the Marshall plan, rebuilding their economies and making sure they have an actual future. The Kaiser wasn't the problem after WWI, it was poverty that allowed the Nazis to rise to power.

andrepd 2y ago
>None of the leaders of Germany in WWI were still in power by the time WWII started. This isn't really true. Hindenburg was instrumental in Hitler's rise to power. Ludendorff was the de facto dictator during WWI and proceeded to create the stab-in-the-back myth and to fight for the Nazis. There is absolutely lots of continuity between the WWI regime and the Nazis.
- WalterBright 2y ago
  Hindenburg was a senile old man at the time. He thought he could control Hitler.
lupusreal 2y ago
After Germany surrendered and the war in Europe was over, America began systematically dismantling West Germany's industrial capabilities. No aid was to be given save the absolute minimum needed to prevent starvation, all the work of rebuilding Germany was to be left to the Germans. The Red Cross was forbidden to visit allied camps of German POWs to provide food or aid. It was even forbidden for Americans to send packages of food to Germans. Over the next two or three years these orders were one-by-one rescinded and reversed, mostly for national security reasons when the Soviet threat was acknowledged and Germany's role in countering that Soviet threat was understood. But even then, in the end only a small portion of the Marshall plan went to West Germany. Most of it went to the rest of western Europe.
- actionfromafar 2y ago
  18 countries got help from the Marshall plan, (West) Germany got 11% of it.
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    Britain and France got the bulk of it, and yet did not experience the economic revival that Germany did.

egeozcan 2y ago

So many people died... yet, people are still voting for the AfD, and the idea of the Final Solution[0] is still somewhat alive under the Master Plan name[1]. I love Germany, but as a migrant living here, this is a "bit" uncomfortable. I lived here 15 years and paid more than a million in taxes, then suddenly a "Start Remigration Now" poster appears[2]. Not cool. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Solution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Solution [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Potsdam_far-right_meeting#Master_plan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Potsdam_far-right_meeting... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Potsdam_far-right_meeting#/media/File:AfD-Wahlplakat_%22Remigration_sofort_starten!%22_in_M%C3%B6dlareuth_20240518_HOF3756_RAW-Export.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Potsdam_far-right_meeting...

InfiniteLoup 2y ago
> and the idea of the Final Solution[0] is still somewhat alive under the Master Plan name[1]. Sorry, but that's utter bullshit. Also, I wonder how you feel about Turkey's plans to remigrate Syrian refugees back to Syria now that Assad has been deposed.
- egeozcan 2y ago
  No that's just a fact. It's the same ideology, trying to be sold under "more acceptable" terms. The BS part is people trying to make it sound milder than what it is. It even wants to deport German citizens who they claim to not have integrated well. More details on similarities: https://www.socialeurope.eu/when-never-again-becomes-again-and-again https://www.socialeurope.eu/when-never-again-becomes-again-a... I don't support any forced relocation of groups of people and find even very long prison sentences debatable. I'm also a big proponent of forcing Turkey to recognize the Armenian and other genocides. Nice try to poison the well though. People build their lives somewhere, relocating them usually means many steps back. If you ever migrated into a complete new country with different values and language, you would understand.
- mschuster91 2y ago
  > Sorry, but that's utter bullshit. Have you missed the last ten years worth of radicalization in the AfD? They started out as what appeared to be a relatively normal fringe party under Lucke, and then over the years the far-right managed to shed ever more layers of the onion. Particularly Höcke, a man who you can legally call a fascist, gives me the chills. And the party youth manages to be even more radical than him, enough to scare the adults into attempting to clean up shop before the youth organization gets banned.